Broadband, NGA, FTTC and the laws of unforeseen consequences
19:06 in guest post by Barry Forde
Yesterday, Barry Forde, the brains behind CLEO, blogged on the “WiFiPie & CHIPS… With everything” Group. Lots of people have asked for Barry to expand on his thoughts. So, here – by popular demand – is an extended version.
Going back to basics what are we trying to do? I’d suggest two things:
- 1. Solve the problems of not-spots and grot-spots by getting broadband to them
- 2. Do that in a way that isn’t a short term solution, but a route to true NGA
If Cumbria does the first of these without the second, then it will end up with a 2Mbps service. This, we all agree, will be a woefully inadequate level of service within a very short period time. What is more, it will have gobbled up money better spent on other solutions.
So, the big challenge is how to procure something that delivers both requirements within the funding available. Is this even possible?
There seem to be two options on the table:
- ♦ BT’s FTTC product, within which some bits of the district would get FTTC, a subset would get FTTP, and another subset would get satellite connectivity with some BET connections
- ♦ FTTP via commercial or community initiatives
BT’s FTTC product
In the Eden valley – the part of Cumbria I have studied most closely – BT’s FTTC product would face a number of challenges.
First, the technology uses the existing copper phone lines from the nearest cabinet (PCP) to the property. It uses VDSL2 modulation which can, in theory, deliver speeds of up to 200Mbps, but as with all copper transmission systems the speed falls off rapidly with distance (Shannon’s Law for those of you with long memories who did physics back in the days when it was still taught).
For that reason, BT refers to an “up to” 40Mbs service, which reflects a realistic view of how far they can drive over their copper. But the actual service they offer to ISPs, which is then available to the consumer, is a rather more restrictive “up to” 40Mbps downstream/15Mbps upstream one.
Originally, BT would not offer an FTTC service unless the property could get a minimum of 15Mbps downstream, but recently it announced that it would lower this target to 5Mbps. This means that BT will be able to claim that any property that it can reach with a 5Mbps service has “superfast” “highspeed” “next generation” broadband.
VDSL2 can only be run over copper originating in a street side cabinet ( the PCP you keep hearing about). If your property is connected directly back to the local telephone exchange, then BT will have to continue to service you using today’s ADSL2 technology. But they will probably upgrade the exchange to 21CN standard that is ADSL2+, which they quote as “up to” 20Mbps service.
How would this measure up in Eden?
Looking at the Eden Valley, there are 24 exchanges serving 23,000 properties. There are 91 PCPs deployed across these exchanges, with around 8300 properties serviced from them. So, out of 23,000 properties only 8300 could get the “Super High Speed Broadband “up to” 40Mbps” service from BT.
The remaining 15,000 would have to stay on ADSL2+ with its up to 20Mbps service. In both cases, properties further away from the exchanges or PCPs would get service well below the headline speed. Those currently in not-spots or grot-spots who are served directly from BT exchanges would continue to get the same service, despite the exchange nominally offering much higher speeds.
If you are lucky and you are served via a PCP you might get an improved service. For instance, if your village were 6km from the exchange but there was a PCP located in the village, you would definitely get much better service than before. But, if you were still several kilometres from the PCP, then you would probably get 2Mbps, and you could forget “NGA” “Superfast” “high speed” service – it’s not coming to you.
I’d like to be able to tell you what percentage of properties would get high speed broadband via an FTTC roll-out, but it’s too complex a process to calculate accurately. My personal view is that out of the 23,000 properties’ no more than 5000 would get a 30Mbps service.
The other 18,000 would get a mix of speeds progressively falling away from the headline speeds of 20Mbps for ADSL2+ and 40Mbps for FTTC service. At the margins, there would probably be around 2000-3000 properties which would still be below the 2Mbps level, and these would be serviced with a mix of BT’s BET (Broadband Enabling Technology) and satellite. This would be similar to what’s happening in the Cornwall and the Scilly Isles project.
If FTTC were selected, then the approximate cost would be around £80k per PCP. This would mean £7.2m for all 91 PCPs in the Eden valley. You would also have to add the cost of upgrading the 24 exchanges to 21CN ADSL2+ service, which would cost another £5m.
Finally, if BT did do 25% of the properties using FTTP, and we were to assume that they cherry-picked urban properties, which cannot be serviced via VDSL, then the cost per property would be around £500. So, 5750 properties at £500 each gives us £2.875m.
Add those numbers together and you get a total £15m – assuming BT were generous and didn’t make any money out of the project!. At a guess they would come in at £1m per exchange, or £24m for the valley. Its unlikely they would do the FTTP bit for the rural properties as the distances are much longer and using the Digital Britain Report figure of £10,800 per property in the rural areas the 25% would cost £61.1m.
FTTP via commercial or community initiatives
FTTP is regarded as the end game by most experts as it offers both very high speeds and longevity. Fibre optic cable is laid the whole way from a central hub (possibly the telephone exchange but any building will do) through to the property.
Two models are used, PtP fibre where each property gets a private fibre(s) between it and the hub, or GPON technology where groups of 32 or 64 properties share a fibre pair and the bandwidth available over it
PtP FTTP usually runs at either 100Mbs or 1Gbs and this bandwidth is available exclusively to the single property served by the fibre. It is also symmetrical. This is necessary for interactive services such as telemedicine and video conferencing.
With GPON it is usual to share a 2.5Gbs channel between the 32 or 64 properties which gives each one significantly less than the PtP technology, but it’s still a lot compared with copper delivery. There are versions of GPON that use a 10Gbs channel. Where independent telcos are rolling out FTTP they tend to go with PtP technology, incumbent telcos prefer GPON which has a much greater market share as a result.
Fibre is also a long term solution because modern fibre has a lifespan of at least 25 years, probably much longer, and can deliver bandwidths up to and beyond 10Gbs. It is also distance independent: out to 10Km uses very cheap optics and as the distance grows beyond that the optics are changed to higher powered ones to reach 40Km, 80Km or further. Clearly these distances are not needed for parish or district deployments. With fibre, the headline speed and the delivered speed are the same – none of this “up to” malarkey.
The issue with fibre is that it has to be laid from scratch, unlike FTTC where the existing investment in the copper is preserved. The fibre itself is cheap, much cheaper than copper. The cost is all down to digging a trench and putting a duct in it, this is around 80% of the total cost.
The Digital Britain Report estimated the cost of running FTTP across the whole UK to be £29bn. This was broken down as around £380 per property in urban areas and £10,800 per property in rural ones. This reflects the much longer distances that would need to be dug in sparsely populated countryside compared to the terraces or streets of semis in the towns.
The RDPE pilot FTTP project around Lancaster
I have been working on an RDPE pilot FTTP project around Lancaster which is a community led build out by the farmers and others in the parishes served. Based on this work we have calculated (following a detailed design effort) that rolling fibre out to 100% of the properties across the parishes costs around £1250 per property in materials and labour costs.
The labour costs are based on farmers doing the digging across their land wherever possible, and, when this is impossible, using local agricultural labour (man plus mini digger plus mate) to do it.
The parishes of the Eden Valley are no different to those near Lancaster, so the numbers could be used for costing purposes. Assuming all 23,000 properties were fibre connected, and given that significant numbers of them are in built up areas like Penrith and Kirkby Stephen, I would expect the cost to be less than £1k per property, giving a total of £23m to do the Eden Valley.
In Lancaster, we are installing an FTTP hub in each parish (well not every but most) and connecting properties at 1Gbs to the hub. The hubs then link back to a central node with 10Gbs circuits and the central node has a dark fibre link (multiple 10Gbs wavelengths) to Telecity in Manchester where we peer and take IP transit. The cost of all that is included in the per property costs so again the overall cost for the Eden Valley is likely to be lower due to being able to spread the central costs over 23000 rather than 700 properties. Factoring all that in a cost around £20m looks feasible.
Conclusion
My guess is that FTTC would come in at around £24m up depending on how much profit BT seeks from the project. BT’s retail arm offers the BT Infinity FTTC product to consumers and charges £19.95/month for the “up to” 40Mbps/2Mbps service and £24.99 /month for the “up to” 40Mbps/10Mbps service. These charges assume you also take a BT phone line and pay the usual line rental on top of the broadband charges and take an 18 or 24 month contract.
The 15,000 users outside of the FTTC service would continue to take and pay for standard broadband as now. I imagine that users connected via satellite would have some subsidy applied to pull their charges down to match copper delivery solutions. Those using BET to get 1 or 2Mbps would again have the capital cost (£600 for 1Mbs service, £900 for 2Mbs service) met from the project and would pay standard ADSL broadband costs thereafter.
An FTTP rollout done via a Community Interest Company, based on the community offering wayleaves free of charge and doing substantial amounts of the digging themselves, would cost around £20m. For a 1Gbps service subscribers would need to pay around £100 connection fee and £30/m (£25+VAT @20%) for service. This covers running the operation, providing plenty of very high quality Internet transit etc.
It looks to me as if the two schemes would cost much the same but the outcomes are wildly different.
How could FTTP be funded?
If BDUK are putting up £5m, with the possibility of another £5m from EU funding, Eden is about half-way there for either scheme. (With the BT FTTC option, I suspect they would trim the rollout to fit the budget). For the community-led FTTP scheme, communities would have to raise the difference.
In the Lancaster model, we are working on the CIC being a company limited by shares. We will issue a prospectus and invite those living in the parishes to subscribe for shares suggesting a £1k subscription would be appropriate. The shares would receive dividends like all other shares and would have a market value equal to their face value of £1 each.
The Eden valley would need to raise £10m from a population of 50,000, so an average of £200 per citizen. If 25% of the homes in Eden were to subscribe for £1k of shares that would produce a sum of £6m. The remaining £4m could be borrowed via corporate bonds carrying say 5% interest with a 7 year redemption date.
How would the numbers then stack up? Well, assuming 25% of properties were to take up the service and pay their £25/month (ex VAT), we would have a revenue of £1.725m/pa. Against that, we have to fund the fibre to Manchester, the peering, the company overheads, the IP transit etc. This would come to around £500k/pa, leaving £1.225m of free cash flow. A 5% dividend to shareholders would cost a further £300k (on £6m of shares). Finally, the loan of £4m would accrue repayment and interest charges of £680k/pa, allowing for a 7-year payback with interest at 5%. So, total annual costs are £1.480m against income of £1.725m, leaving a tidy margin.
If take up were 50%, then the income would be £3.45m, but the cost base would not climb pro-rata. The loan and dividends remain the same as does the fibre to Manchester and company costs. The only change would be the IP transit, which might add another £100k/pa. So, the net effect of higher take up would be to generate a large increase in free cash flow. As can be seen, the operation is very viable.
So the obvious question is: why wouldn’t a commercial entity come in and do it if there is money to be made? The answer of course is that the numbers only work for a community based project where the citizens put in the work and allow digging on their land.
A commercial company could not dig out using highways without pushing the cost up by a factor of twenty. Funding that sort of investment would require a much greater return from charges than is achievable.
How about a commercial company working with the community? Well I suspect that the willingness of farmers and landowners to grant free wayleaves and do plenty of work themselves would evaporate if it was a straight commercial company doing the project.
The law of unforeseen consequences
If the Eden Valley is to get FTTC, there are a number of damaging side effects which may not have been forseen by those running the procurement. First, PCPs tend to be located where clusters of properties exist. If the cabinet gets FTTC, the properties close to it will be offered the “up to” 40Mbps service at BT Infinity rates, which they will leap at given their current lack of service.
The result will be that those community-based networks currently operating or planned will have their heart cut out as their main customer base is lost. They will not be able to make a living with the residue, and those that currently get a reasonable service from them will have to fall back upon on an inferior service from BT.
Communities interested in developing an FTTP project for their parish or village will also find that the economics have changed. The lower cost, higher density areas will have FTTC cabinets offering service, leaving the community to focus on the more remote properties that can’t get service via FTTC. But the cost per property connected will climb steeply from around £1k to something in the region of £3k, reflecting the fact that only long dig properties are in the mix.
Given a higher cost base and a reduced subscriber base the sums will not add up and community FTTP projects will be impossible. In effect the procurement will have distorted the market against community groups.
Finally, by rolling out FTTC, BT will have locked in their monopoly on the physical infrastructure. Because they refuse to supply dark fibre to third parties, anyone wishing to offer service would suffer the double whammy of a high backhaul cost, plus a subscriber base already locked in by BT. There would be no way for anyone to compete.
In a couple of years when it’s obvious to everyone that 40Mbps/10Mbps is inadequate and that what they need is a symmetrical 100Mbps service to support emerging NGA applications, where will the residents of Eden go?
BT will say: “OK we have a product, it’s called FTTP, but it’s expensive as we have to dig out to properties.” They will have no incentive to fund the digging of the last mile, since their monopoly is safe from competition and customers are locked in without the choice of an alternative supplier.
BT will then repeat the exercise of taking its begging bowl to government, claiming that it’s too expensive for them to dig out without public subsidy. Nobody else will be able to compete with the entrenched BT position following the FTTC rollout.
So in the short term, Cumbria would get a modest speed jump of, say, 30Mbps for a small proportion of the population, but many would still be on slow speed connections and the long term challenge of NGA (100Mbps or higher in my opinion) would remain unresolved, despite having blown the millions.

That is the best explanation of this that I have ever read. I just wish the council and politicians would read it and try to understand the con that BT are trying to pull on us. I feel sorry for Cornwall, but Lancashire and Cumbria should have more sense than to fall for the Infinity hype. We want next generation access for the next generation, we got conned out of funding with project access, let us not let it happen again.
chris
Thank you Barry, this has clarified the issue nicely.
An interesting and insightful article, thank you. It accords with my conclusion that those of us who live well away from the villages are unlikely to see any progress in the near term. It’s the same issue as road gritting in these icy conditions – the steep hilly road past my house is NEVER gritted because too few people live along it. Other roads are gritted relentlessly, especially those on the school run!
Fortunately, I can’t see me ever needing umpteen Mb/s capacity – unless the short term plan is to turn of terrestrial TV and radio broadcasting and solely deliver it down the wire. I’ve managed with 512kb/s for the last five years (and much less than that before ADSL belatedly arrived in Morland). I suspect I’ll be doing so for some time to come!
Actually John you have hit on one of the main drivers behind FTTP, its video. The latest project is YouView which is a joint BBC/ITV/CH4/CH5 etc. etc service which will deliver TV via the Internet. All FreeView and FreeSat channels will be on it along with an extended IPlayer service giving -7days viewing. Also video on demand, see the latest film when you want without postage or a trip to town. New types of service will come via the same route as will pay TV channels. The downside? YouView recommend 30Mbs per subscriber of capacity in the set top box so I guess that needs to be matched in the broadband link? I think the promise of a BSkyB equivalent with the added attraction of interactivity delivered without a sat dish is attractive.
Barry
Indeed, Barry – I realise that video is the bandwidth driver and the sort of numbers being bandied about for the local loop will not be far short of the mark. But as you’ve very clearly shown in your article, there are numerous interwoven technical and commercial issues in a large, hilly low population density area such as the Eden Valley.
I also wonder whether the backhaul and network core would have the capacity for a nation of 40Mb/s users all chucking video around the place! Even with my modest 512kb/s local loop, there are countless occasions when the (uncontended) local loop is not the throughput limiting factor by a long chalk.
BT size their network to allow 35Kbs per subscriber at peak times. TalkTalk allows 20Kbs and the other ISPs a range of capacity between 20 and 50Kbs. They are assuming traditional use such as web browsing or email. With users pulling video for extended periods their networks will collapse unless resized. With BT GEA (Infinity) there is no support for Multicast either so even if dozens of users are watching the same channel each will pull a copy seperately. For the Lancaster project we are firstly allowing 5Mbs per subscriber (142 times BT’s allowance), also taking additional 10Gbs peering connections to YouView and other high capacity use providers such as Google. This is where having dark fibre in the backhaul wins out, we are lighting it with 8x10Gbs wavelengths initially and can go to 16 when needed. Finally our network is Multicast enabled so only one copy of a live channel needs to come up any trunk link. So even if there are 100 people in a parish watching X-Factor final in 3D/HD we only put a 15Mbs load on the backhaul despite each getting a 15Mbs feed on their link. Neat trick eh!
Surely there cannot be 100 people in the whole of the Eden Valley that actually WANT to watch X-factor?
Rather less flippantly, I realise that it is fairly easy to correctly size the backhaul (more accurately, it is something over which we have some control). I do wonder about the core backbone though: is it really going to step up to the bandwidth and, especially, low latency requirements for all this streaming video? A rhetorical question, you understand
A question rather than a comment. Why does FTTP necessarily require digging? Why can’t the fibre be strung from telegraph poles alongside the conventional telephone wires? This would surely be quicker (and therefore cheaper).
Well there are two bits of FTTP, the trunk bits and then the spurs off to individual houses. The spurs could easily be delivered by poles and if BT does make pole access available at an affordable price then that could be the preferred method. For the trunk where bigger capacity cable is needed its a bit more difficult but could still be done. However the routes used for FTTP would be different to those BT used for phone lines so it would mean new poles rather than using BT ones.
Digging costs around £1.25-£1.50 per metre. The span between poles is probably <100m and a pole costs ~£200 to buy and install so digging across farmland is still likely to be cheaper.
Barry
Thanks Barry, that was very helpful. Martin J
@Martin Joyce: Also note http://broadbandcumbria.com/members/craigbrass/activity/1331/ where it mentions about it can’t be used for businesses as it would be classed as a leased line replacement and can’t be used for mobile phone backhaul. These two things would help fund the network cost.
Craig,
This does not affect the FTTP CIC project unless we did use BT poles. It is trivial to not use a pole to reach a business but actually its all red herring and not something to bother about. We would indeed offer service to both businesses and mobile operators and anyone else who wanted a service.
My dinner’s just gone cold waiting for me, but well worth it to read this article. Great summary Barry and good to get some of the financial estimates.
Good to know its going to be possible to JFDI ourselves!
We must prevent the council from handing public money (which belongs to the final third) into the hands of the incumbent dinosaur telco who will only deliver to the two thirds close to cabinets/exchanges. I for one don’t mind paying, digging or whatever it takes so that my home and business get a decent connection. I don’t know what the future holds, but my kids and grandchildren have lives to lead and I don’t want them wasting their lives waiting for BT and their waste of time copper solutions. I want fibre, so that you can do a job and move on. I object to public money being mis appropriated to prop up an obsolete business model. Copper cannot deliver to the final third. If the council fall for the BT Infinity scam they want exposing. This is a scandal waiting to happen. They have the chance with CLEO to make Cumbria (and Lancashire) the fastest, best and most futureproof counties in the country. We could lead the world. We are obviously a threat to BT. That is why they are creeping around and flarching about the councils. The RDAs are not standing up to them. There is a very great danger that what Barry has said can come to pass. If they put cabinets in then the chances of building our own proper networks becomes very difficult. The funding would go a long way into getting the initial fibre out to the more remote locations if we did it ourselves. Why can’t we JFDI? I think that is going to be the only answer on this one.
Excellent information Barry. FTTH it is then. Martin
Thanks for posting that. It will clear the situation up for many people. FTTH and JFDI are the ways forward!
With regards to public procurement, it all comes back to stopping it going down this method as all it will see happen is the funding being handed to BT. I have discussed one way of stopping it at http://broadbandcumbria.com/groups/the-pitfalls-of-procurement/
Barry very useful information. The concentration on line speed has always been a red herring. Since even the latest report defines broadband (wrongly) as “delivering greater speed than narrowband i.e. 128Kbps” it really does go to show that no one has been sold broadband at all – we have all been robbed and should trust the Bandwidth Thieves no longer! They have been playing similar games with trunk phone capacity for a long time (Erlang tables) – iPlayer etc. have really caught the telco’s out. Investment has not been high enough for years and we are now playing the price.
Multicast enabled networks are a must..
Barry,
Excellent explanation that just gets better with each retelling!
FttH QED from a future-proof and common sense perspective.
That Settle-Carlisle railway surely has to become part of the Dark Fibre mix for Eden…. we must find a way!
Apropos of possible use of the Carlisle to Settle railway, I’m almost certain that Global Crossing will own the wayleaves. They’ll certainly be happy to lease some of their dark (or lit) fibre but I very much doubt they’ll let anyone else lay their own.
Ownership: British Rail Telecommunications, bought out by Racal Telecom (I was part of the negotiating team for Racal), subsequently subsumed into Global Crossing.
Hi John, actually the Settle to Carlisle line does not have any Global Crossing fibre laid along it. The only fibre there is a 24 fibre bundle surface mounted and stapled to the sleepers which was installed by Network Rail as part of the FTN project (£1.2B of public money). Network Rail are happy to sell wayleaves along the railway lines. On busy lines which have a high market value they charge an annual wayleave of £2/m/pa which is a bit steep. This could be capitalised at 8 or 9 times the annual rate so say £16-£18/m. Carlisle to NYCC border is around 100Km so cost would be £1.6M-£1.8M plus cost of laying fibre, say another £1M on top.
Barry
I thought that might be the case – at the time BRT owuld have been rolling out its fibre the future of that line was looking quite bleak. Interesting though that Network Rail has laid fibre and apparently has wayleave rights. I guess the BRT monopoly must have been broken somewhere along the line. I’ve been out of the corporate telecoms market for ten years and things move on!
Barry, this is a very interesting article. Thank you.
Could you confirm I’ve understood the following figures correctly:
1. FTTC – BT’s costs would be approx £80k per PCP and £210k per Exchange.
2. FTTP Installation costs – Approx £1250 per property for the average rural parish, using community digging techniques, including a FTTP Hub and dark fibre to Telecity Manchester.
3. FTTP Running costs – Approx £500k/pa for operations and bandwidth for 5750 subscribers. Additional £100k/pa bandwidth for each additional 5750 subscribers.
4. Of this £500k/pa for 5750 subscribers, how much of that is base cost and how much is bandwidth costs?
5. Once an FTTP Hub is installed and operational, what would be the approximate retrospective cost to add a property, using community digging techniques?
Thanks
1. Yes, these are approx but in the right ball park.
2. Yes the £1250 was derived by digging out to 100% of properties and doing all the company work+backhaul to Manchester, etc then dividing total cost by number of props.
3. The £500K is a mix of lease for a dark fibre pair say Penrith to Manchester at £60K/pa, IP transit at £2/Mb/Month (10Gbs = £240K/pa) and then some bits and pieces like RIPE membership, Telehouse space for racks for WDM kit. Its a conservative figure and could probably be reduced in practice. At 5Mbs per subsciber split 50:50 peering and IP-Transit you could support 4,000 users per 10Gbs IP Transit port. The cost of additional subscribers is the £2/Mb/Month which you can work out.
4. I think the bit above answers this?
5. Well the fibre is in the ground so to speak as the £1250 cost allows for 100% dig out. so the additional cost is equipment. This comes to £160 for the kit I’m proposing to use to deliver a 1000BaseTX port in the property.
You could allow for enough fibre in the core to service 100% of properties but not dig the spur until the subscriber places an order. The cost then would be £1.25/metre for dig costs (if you had to pay someone, 0 if done by community), £0.18/m for 7mm direct buried duct and £0.14p/m for 4 fibres blown through the 7mm duct. Assume 100m from spur splice bullet to property and you would get £32 for materials plus any dig costs. Not a significant sum is it?
regards
Barry
Just to clear up something else. The total project costs include taking four people from the local community and putting them through a C&G Fustion Splicing course so that they can do the clever linking of fibre pieces together. It also includes buying the fusion splicing kit and assorted tools for them to use on the project. These are one off costs associated with CIC establishment. For Eden we might want to train up more people?
Barry,
What I’m not clear about in all this is: who is the ISP? Do we set ourselves up as ISP or are we simply providing physical connectivity and users go with whatever ISP they wish who can provide services thereon? I’ve been with Zen for as long as we’ve had ADSL up here and I remain with them because there is no traffic shaping or (for my service) quotas. I like that and it would be a wrench to leave Zen!
John,
The CIC would be the ISP and provide all the usual ISP services. The £30/m fee covers all that.
I thought that would be the case and I have to admit it gets me fiddling more nervously with my worry beads. ISPs vary from the dire to the excellent – you really do get what you pay for. Where in the commercial model is the cost of ongoing support personnel/infrastructure?
I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t understand the way the business (and it IS a business) will operate. It seems to rely very heavily on volunteer/below market rate effort and I don’t see the business plan beyond initial implementation.
Sorry to appear negative. It may be that all these things are properly addressed already but on what I know at the moment it seems like a big leap of faith.
An excellent explanation. We now understand the size of the problem and here are all the figures to back it up. Can we now spread the word so that others can understand how it might be done in a similar way their communities. Can we devise a spreadsheet so that similar approximate calculations can be made for other places with differing circumstances? (with all the caveats that it may not be very accurate)
Can I recommend you consider the cost for additional properties requiring service at a later date, and what might be installed now for them.
And, my usual question, of how you deal with areas with roads and pavements. Plus if businesses use it they want a very reliable service.
The design would allow for 100% connectivity in that the trunks would be sized with enough fibres to drop 4 off at each property. Spur points (splice bullets) are located in suitable locations ready for the spurs to be dug off. You would only dig that spur once the property owner signed up for service.
The CIC would register with OFCOM as a communications provider and apply for code powers. I’ve discussed this with OFCOM for the Lancaster project and they see no problems with awarding code powers to a CIC which would clearly be running a PECN and therefore eligible. This gives the CIC the power to dig up roads and located street furniture on the verges/pavements as necessary to build out the network. It also sets up the CIC for PIA when BT opens this up to CPs sometime next year.
regards
Barry
If they do implement FTTC, there’s no technical reason why BT don’t install VDSL in the exchange, to serve premises directly connected. In due course 21CN is supposed to remove local telephone exchanges, so the building will be just a big dslam cabinet anyway.
My biggest concern with any of these community FTTH projects is the reliance on the engagement and support of a sizable part of the community. In my experience, there is a lot of conservatism, suspicion and lethargy which can make community networks unviable. The advantage of the BT approach (given their status as the owner of the existing cabinets and copper local loops) is that it doesn’t need a lot of commitment up-front, and people can see it working before they sign up to it, and it will be better than what they’ve got now.
Community fiber installations are a leap into the dark and I’m not sure the average resident is really willing to leave the security of the devil they know – and BT has the media and marketing sown up too.
We are talking here about a huge gulf in knowledge and assumptions – not even the participants in this debate believe the technical challenges are a foregone conclusion (for example “who is the ISP?” opens a huge can of worms) so the chances of persuading a non technical village resident or technophobe to buy into CIC fiber seem pretty slim to me.
I’m sorry to be negative, I’d really like this to succeed and I’d love to take part in a similar project in my own area, but I’ve been through it before (when ADSL was first being rolled-out) and I’m not quite so sure that the community at large is ready or willing to join in with the level of support that would be required for the project to succeed.
@Aled Morris: This is where NextGenUs comes in. We have knowledge of how to get all this done and handle billing, support, etc. It combines community engagement to get the required sign ups along with a company that knows exactly how to run these networks.
One thing I KEEP saying to people is that if FTTC is deployed, in 4-5 years time we will again be saying we need faster speeds. The funding won’t be available a second time and no company will deploy where BT has deployed FTTC.
Can NextGenUs support multiple roll-outs of the scale that Barry envisages? I get the impression that NextGenUs isn’t a large organisation.
There is obviously a lot of expertise kicking around in the individuals contributing to these forums – is there any thinking along the lines of forming a cooperative (perhaps under the NextGenUs name) to bring together the people who can contribute to the solution, to make them stakeholders in the success too?
I can envisage a Internet-based company of hundreds of “members” (or “partners” or “employees” as it were.) I think this is the minimum size of organisation that would be needed to give confidence in the longevity of any utility infrastructure projects.
(for example “who is the ISP?” opens a huge can of worms)
Indeed it does! And it would be interesting to hear what the answer is.
I think you raise some very valid points Aled. Quite apart from the technical and commercial challenges of building the infrastructure, there is also the ongoing support, potentially for decades. If the model is based on this effort being provided at below commercial rates then it is likely to fail eventually.
The longer term risk is that a PTO (BT probably) eventually offers something that is as good but at lower cost. This leaches away support for the local project until it becomes non-viable. Exactly that happened to a number of wireless-based local solutions that were overtaken by the eventual arrival of ADSL.
I’m as keen as anyone to have high speed Internet access. I’m computer literate, with both hardware and software expertise and I worked in corporate telecoms for 30-odd years. If I can help then I will but we need to be very sure what we are letting ourselves in for and properly understand the long term technical and commercial risks.
Hi Aled,
Actually there are technical issues that prevent VDSL2 being run from exchanges. Without getting too techie its down to the power spectrum distribution of the signals. ADSL has a spectral mask as does VDSL2. If you run VDSL2 from the exchange there is cross interference from the VDSL signals which would blat the ADSL ones. So existing broadband subscribers would lose service. So everyone is prohibited from deploying VDSL from the exchange.
Barry
@Barry Forde “everyone is prohibited from deploying VDSL from the exchange”
The ANFP was always very conservative and I’ve heard it said that BT “influenced” the NICC to limit the roll-out of new technologies (ADSL2, VDSL etc) by LLU providers.
So the “no VDSL” rule isn’t necessarily a technical one. The cable bundles in a rural exchange may be quite similar to those in a PCP – it is the large urban exchanges that have the massive density of pairs that the NICC are concerned about.
I think there is scope for research on the use of lower power profiles like 8c to give better-than-ADSL performance for loops <1km in villages with their own exchanges.
I don't know why I'm arguing for extending the life of copper here
I am totally on-board with FTTH!
Somerset, The beauty of this model is if additional properties require a connection the profit made by the CIC will pay to get to them, also breakout points will be left in appropriate places, and joined up thinking will ensure that everyone will get a connection – that is the difference between a community enterprise and an incumbent protecting an obsolete business model. The FTTP model Barry discribes is sustainable, the FTTC model will need further funding in years to come.
Be careful of words like ‘joined up thinking’, management speak, means nothing. Profits of any company go towards future growth. You really have to stop knocking other companies. Maybe you can explain why their business model is obsolete.
What are these emerging NGA applications?
I would say that the 1st of these NGA Applications would be YouView aka Project Canvas which I expect will be a bit of a game changer in terms of public demand for broadband and especially requirement of symmetrical. YouView is set to launch this year after a bit of bother with legal ranglings (akin to what the BBC had to deal with with regards to iPlayer – hence the delay). YouView is set to be the standard for IPTV (Internet Protocol Television) and is a collaboration between BBC, ITV, BT, Channel 4 and Talk Talk. Linkage; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8424677.stm
BBC R&D are also interested in pilots within areas of NGA to look at YouView second generation – to look at how far it can be pushed. This includes entertainment and more importantly public services.
I would say of all the NGA application that I know of this is the 1st and the most publicly tangable. It’s basically a freeview style box that is very cheap and makes all sorts of internet possible via the telly.
I will be doing an interview with BBC R&D in the new year and will post it on the Stanwix Microsite with the other interview which I will be doing with Ben Hammersley. I hope this helps.
I share the concerns of Aled regarding exactly what a ‘community’ is and what involvement is needed in a project like this. We will all be there but who else will be? Projects start with lots of keen people but then the numbers decrease. Will people be digging for free to connect a money making business?
What, exactly, is the community involvement needed?
An extremely well written article there Barry, although it’s worth remembering that the government will use more than just FTTC to solve this problem. For example, in some areas of the Cornwall pilot BT appear to be looking at a style of FiWi and or installing more PCP’s.
Community-based networks would definitely help, although there are still far too many tax and regulatory related obstacles that conspire to hinder their growth. I also think that after a certain frame of time/return on their investment, such networks would still need to open themselves up to wholesale competition or the long-term effects might become counterproductive.
It’s a bit chicken and the egg though. To tackle this problem on a national scale the smaller community focused operators have to grow and have grander ambitions, which would take years and require more regulation changes. That’s not going to happen, at least not on the scale that we’d need, so sadly I fear that this is all wishful thinking.
Aled, the people of cumbria are different to other communities you may have come across. Also they have been promised access once in 2003 and not got it so they are more wary of the incumbent than other counties. This project would work. In the North at any rate. Can’t speak for the South but if it works somewhere else then what more proof do they need? Hopefully people will be digging for free, to ‘connect a money making business’ that will reinvest its profits in the communities who had the grit to start digging… that is what makes it so good. A CIC can’t just take the profits it has to reinvest and get more people online. Even the very difficult to reach ones stand a chance with this model. Its brilliant.
chris
Very interesting article, I share your concerns about FTTC – it’s wrong to call it superfast when the true range of speeds is as low as 5Mbps. It would be nice not to go down the digital dead end – in BT’s own words, there’s not much you can reuse going from FTTC to FTTP..
BUT
Is your FTTP project is costed on a best case scenario? £1.25/m digging is much lower than anything I’ve heard of before – Alston was costed at around £10/m if I recall correctly. Also, I don’t reckon every farmer and landowner will let you dig across their land for free, even for a community project. Can you route the network to avoid roads entirely? Does your analysis depend on this?
What are the costs of planning, of setting up the wayleave agreements (even if no rental is due, agents and lawyers will probably be needed), of marketing the idea to the community to get them on board with the plan? What about billing, customer support and so on? A company like BT can use its existing systems, but a community network will need to set up new ones, which incurs a capital cost.
The business plan needs to have all the costs covered and a decent contingency built in.
I’ve had a number of queries re the digging costs so its obviously contentious. I’ve arrived at it by disregarding traditonal telco contractors and instead looking at agricultural labour rates. A man with mini digger plus a mate to help costs between £250 and £350 per day. These people are very experienced in things like drainage systems for fields and thats actually what we are doing. Remember we are digging across fields for 95% of the route lengths. There are no NRSWA regulations in force on private fields. So the team can just dig a slot 500mm deep (just above the drainage pipes if there are any in the fields), drop in the duct and backfill the trench. I’ve talked with some of these contractors and they tell me that depening on ground conditions and things like walls they can do 100-300m of trench per working day. Take a mid point of 200m and the mid point of £300/day you get £1.5/m costs.
You will hit a stone wall periodically and if only in a modest proportion of cases will there be a handy gate to go through. So I’m working on taking down a couple of metres of wall and putting it back up once the duct has passed through. This will cost around £150/wall crossing. When we hit a road we need to do a crossing and this will involve using NRSWA registered contractors and will probably cost around £500 per crossing as a result. untill the full design is done exact numbers are difficult to work out so I’ve allowed a 20% contigency within the £1250 per property to cover things like road crossings and walls.
We would use a standard wayleave document which I’m sure some land agent in the community would work up for us free of charge. This could then be discussed by interested parties until everyone is happy and we use that as the standard document. All we do with each landowner is extract a 1:1250 map from OS, mark up the route, append it to the wayleave document and get it signed by the landowner. Job done?
The question of community involvement is the crucial one for us. What does it mean? Well firstly landowners have to grant a free of charge wayleave. Why should they? Well it supports the community, it gets them a better service and there is plenty of evidence that properties with fibre/very high speed broadband sell for more than those without. So regard it as an investment. My view is under no circumstances would any wayleave payments be made to anyone. If the landowner refused to grant it foc then we would change the route to bypass them and go via another landowners field. The bypassed property would not then get a connection and would not be factored into the build scheme either so would have a substantial cost penalty if they wanted to get service later. A bit nasty I know but if carrots dont work….
As for the digging the idea would be to factor the digging costs into the overall project. But where a member of the community is willing to dig their bit without immediate payment they would be granted shares equal to the amount we would have had to pay a contractor to dig the same section. So if their bit of land was 500m and we use £1.5/m as the norm they would get £750 of shares. This recognises their input to the community without the project having to raise actual cash. The shares would attact dividends and have a value equal to their face value which could be traded to other members of the community or at a later date when reserves permit be bought back by the CIC.
I think everyone needs to understand that where professional civils contractor activity is required then the costs are rather more than Barry is indicating.
Speaking from experience on the NextGenUs Ashby FttH project, I agree there is plenty of scope for cutting down costs on civils generally, I just don’t want folks to be getting unrealistic ideas as to what delivering a durable solution will entail.
By way of example anbd based on minimum 1000 metre runs:
Carriage way duct Per metre £68.00
Moleplough cable Per metre £3.00
Soft unsurfaced duct Per metre £12.00
Footway duct Per metre £33.00
Percussion moling duct Per metre £50.00
Have you taken into consideration the UK fibre tax and other fees/taxes?
I am told (Agricultural Budgeting & Costing Handbook Nov 2010) that minimum cost of digging would be in the range £1.80-£3.00 per metre – that’s a farmer doing his own digging, putting top soil on one side of the trench and sub soil on the other, putting them back afterwards. This assumes that the land is opened and closed in a day, so there’s no need to set up fences to keep livestock out of the trench. It seems like unlikely any project could achieve an average that was lower.
I wonder why cable plowing is not discussed here at all. Much, much faster and cheaper. You can pull the cable plow behind a tractor or use dedicated cable plow machines. As a bonus it’s obviously also totally trenchless. I see no problem hitting £1.25 with that. Been there, done that.
FYI, commercial, large scale fiber buildouts in rural areas regularly come in at £5/m, all costs included.
I think everybody’s figures for digging costs are right, it depends how you do it and what the ground is like. Personally I have found that a spade and some elbow grease can provide a good workout and bury hundreds of metres of water pipe in just a few days. Just imagine what a small army of Cumbrians with spades could do to lower the costs…
This is a very useful article. I have referenced it on the INCA website at http://www.inca.coop. Thanks Barry.
Barry should start up a dry stone walling business at those prices, LOL. A lot of wishful thinking in some of the prices, stick it on a Google spreadsheet in public view and run some sensitivity analysis on it.
He also appears to have repealed various laws if “under no circumstances would any wayleave payments be made to anyone”.
Look forward to a realistic version.
Well I can only say that I spoke with my local stone waller who does most of the work around here and he said he could do two walls per working day and charges £25/hr, my numbers came from that.
I dont understand the “appears to have repealed various laws” bit. If we dont cross private land we dont need wayleaves, if we do cross private land we do need wayleaves but as the buyer we have the choice of whether/what to pay. If the landowner won’t play ball then fine we shift the route along to use land belonging to another landowner who does have a sense of community spirit. If the shift gets too long we bite the bullet and use the highway which as a statutory undertaking (Code powers holder) we can do without paying anyone for the privelidge. This could mean paying out more than we would have done in wayleaves to that particular landowner but its a case of sticking to a principle. If we pay one landowner then all the others will say why not us? Once you open that can of worms you end up with a £6/m wayleave on top of the dig costs and the project will become unaffordable.
regards
Barry
@HillBilly “…stick it on a Google spreadsheet in public view…”
I’ve created a simple spreadsheet for you.
It assumes that the FTTH network backbone will be similar in scale to BT’s exchange network, organised as interconnected rings; that the amount of digging required for accessing homes is the sum of the distances between subscribers; that costs are linearly scalable; business rates, taxes and staff costs are excluded. etc. etc.
No doubt I’ve forgotten something…
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AvkowykOeS58dDBEb0dlNVlpeEc0cEhWRFZqcHRhb0E&hl=en&authkey=CKrlw_EB
that’s a very useful spreadsheet, thanks. I note that changing the cost per metre of digging from £4 to £5 adds £3.8m or 15% to the total capital cost of the project. Seems a very sensitive parameter and one with a fair degree of uncertainty, reading the comments.
I also note that there is no allowance for “professional services, consultancy, specialist engineering etc” which may be an oversight in a £20m project that may be crossing roads, railways, gas mains etc..
I would be keen to avoid the historical proven ability of public sector IT projects to massively overspend and fail to deliver, so getting a robust budget for the project is very important.
Great article – thanks. I’m curious about the use of the CIC model. I see it offers the asset lock, but I wonder if you have considered the Industrial and Provident Society model? The “ben com” variant of the IPS also provides for an asset lock, plus it provides for a low cost community share issue that I think would suit your needs. Registration costs are low and advice and consultancy support can be funded through the Cooperative Group’s Enterprise Hub. Get in touch if you would like more info, or contact Dave Hollings at http://www.cms.coop
Hi Graham – I have gone with a CIC simply because it was the first model that came up that seemed to work. I’m sure that there are others and we would need input to see which would be best.
A CIC which is a Social Enterprise hits the spot with me for two reasons, firstly I think people can understand the model and feel comfortable with it. The CIC has to be kept localised for that to work so I’d envisage something along the lines of “Eden Valley Broadband CIC Ltd” as meeting the define community and being local tests.
Secondly there is the VOA rates issue. A charity would get an automatic 80% rates relief on the fibre it lights and should get a full 100% under most circumstances. My understanding is that LAs will also grant the discretionary rates relief to Social Enterprises and many of them specifically mention CICs as eligible. We need to check out which form of legal entity is best to cover off the local, community and rates relief issues. Several people have raise the question of the rates and my view is that with correct construction of the legal entity the issue goes away. But I agree we do need advice here.
Don’t you need a wayleave or contract to ensure you have continuous service and 24×7 access for maintenance? Again, any business will want a reliable service.
Barry- your man does 2 walls a day – how long?
Yes thats the purpose of the wayleave, first to give permission to cross the land and then to service the facility placed under it.
The wall would need a “V” slot taken down, say 2m wide at the top to a foot wide at the bottom. The digger then cuts his trench through the slot and the waller rebuilds the wall.
A Community Interest Company (CIC) Limited by Shares is still a company and therefore has no exemptions from the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000.
As this would be a public share issue (I see no way it could be otherwise) this would mean that the share issue would have to be authorised by an authorised investment adviser which add significantly to the cost. Furthermore, as it is a public share issue the would have to use a CIC structured as a plc. This is legally possible but so far as I know has never been successfully done since CICs were introduced. Once set up, of course, the plc structure is heavily regulated and this will add to running costs.
For these reasons the vast majority of community share issues in the UK are done using Industrial and provident society legislation – either as bona fide co-operatives or Societies for the Benefit of the Community (bencoms). If you are concerned about a lock on assets then this can be done under the bencom structure in much the same way as in a CIC.
Societies have exemptions from the Financial Services and markets Act 2000 as their shares are not defined as securities for the purpose of the Act. There are other advantages to an IPS. Share capital can be withdrawable which can be attractive to smaller investors. In addition one member one vote is complusary in IPSs no matter what the shareholding. In a CIC Limited by Shares one share one vote is the default posiiton. This can be changed but requires adapting a more comples structure with at least two classes of shares.
For more information I suggest that you look at the community shares website, a project led by Co-ops Uk and the Development Trusts Association and funded by the Department for Communites and Local Government. and the Cabinet Office.
http://www.communityshares.org.uk
At least look at all the options before adopting a legal form which, in my view, may cause you real problems going forward.
Dave,
Thanks for all that information. Clearly some legal advice is needed to get the right structure. Sounds like you have a lot of knowledge in the area and perhaps could advise us?
I’m the lead consultant to the Community Shares programme. In the last two years there has been a huge surge on the number of communities raising share capital to finance community enterprises and nearly all of these are using the Industrial and Provident Society structure. Societies have a unique form of share capital called withdrawable share capital. This means that when a member wants their money back, they can withdraw it from the society, subject to terms and conditions. This solves the main problem with company structures, including CICs, where investors can buy shares, but if they want their money back, they have to find someone willing to buy their shares. There are other reasons why the Society format is preferrred which have already been stated; exemption from costly regulation, one-member-one-vote, not one-share-one-vote, the scope to introduce an asset lock, etc etc.
Barry – what does it cost to set up a wayleave?
Barry – do you have a link to YouView needing a 30M link?
Barry – found it:
The IP stack shall be capable of handling a throughput of at least three concurrent 10 Mbps TCP sessions. It is anticipated that content bitrates could range from around 700 kbps up to 10 Mbps for future HD content.
Barry’s excellent article demonstrates the disconnect between the rhetoric and the reality of current broadband policy. This was apparent in the government’s strategy paper published last week – see http://blog.broadbandpolicy.co.uk/2010/12/britains-superfast-broadband-disconnect.html for my thoughts on this.
Hi Barry,
Thanks for committing all of this info to a blog post. Its extremely useful to have the law of unforseen consequences set out. We are launching a community share offer in the Spring – assisted by Dave Hollings – to raise finance for NGA on Alston Moor. When we have the offer document ready I will post a link on the site.
I think the main point that is coming out of this thread is that there may be obstacles but they are not surmountable. We can do this.
We have to do this for future generations.
If we don’t then the final third will never get decent connectivity, and the other two thirds will also have a connection which will need upgrading in the years to come.
We must stop public money going to an incumbent with a remit to protect its copper phone lines and give the funding to companies who will go the final mile. The first mile. From a home or business to the internet.
chris
Thanks Barry and all contributors,
This has been a really interesting read, particularly the discussion about how to handle the human issues – my experience is that technology can normally be made to deliver but it’s the people who stuff things up. We’re a cantankerous species…
@cyberdoyle: I think that should read “insurmountable”.
On the point about stopping public money going to BT, I quite agree, but how can this best be achieved? In the eyes of many consumers, BT are seen as the only game in town, and their misnamed “Infinity” product is the bees knees – with a massive marketing budget behind it.
Can the new Localism bill be used as a lever in this context? A community right to build its own FTTx network?
Ha Graham, you are right, I should’ve known better than to use big words
I don’t know how we are going to pull this off, localism or big society, but we can’t let this chance pass us by. We have to go for it.
chris
cyberdoyle – strange how the industry is not saying that. What you should be saying, instead of your usual moan, is that the government should fund the rollout of FTTP to all UK premises.
Where does BT say it has a remit to protect copper as a means of delivery? Remember it’s service that is important not how it is delivered.
I did give you a link where BT said it wanted one network to supply and maintain. Part of the problem is it is obligated by law to supply a copper phone service.
What is the cost of installing FTTP in urban areas? A lot, lot higher than across fields.
Please understand the wider picture.
cyberdoyle – are you aware of any companies keen to provide FTTP in urban areas? H2O haven’t exactly taken the UK by storm. VM haven’t done much new digging in the last 15 years, and they have a 100M product with phone and TV.
Barry,
Very interesting and well put article. I think there’s a real case to be made for community broadband project and would encourage you to build a generic business model and make it open source or creative commons to help other communities figure these things out.
I have only one question about your thinking, but I’m afraid it’s a big one: every one I’ve talked to (including some people who really do not like incumbents in general) about this tells me that the numbers for the BT FTTC deployment are hugely inflated.
I’m not suggesting they are, but I’d like to understand what your sources are for these numbers. Even if it turns out it’s cheaper that doesn’t necessarily invalidate your approach (since the FTTC network will itself need rejuvenation sooner rather than later) but it puts it in a different perspective.
Benoit,
I’m aware of a number of cases where BT has made indicative offers to do an FTTC rollout. I’ve been told what the offer prices are and I’ve worked that backwards to arrive at the figures I’ve used. I’m not at liberty to disclose where the projects are.
But one reference that is in the public domain is the Cornwall and Isles of Scilly NGA project. That covers 98 BT exchanges and the funding from ERDF and other sources is £132M which works out at £1.35M/exchange. It may be that BT does alter its pricing when it gets to the tender stage but I’ll buy you a beer if my numbers turn out to be very far from the mark.
regards
Barry
Somewhere I heard/read a FTTC cabinet was 30k.
Is this relevant to the discussion?
http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super-fastfibreaccess/geafttpbrownfield/geafttpbrownfield.do
I think one problem is to differentiate between what it would cost another telco to kit out an FTTC cabinet and what it costs BT. They have a lot of overheads to cover (not least a massive pensions hole) so the amount they charge is a lot more than the amount it costs them.
In terms of the FTTP pricing it is interesting to look at them for a moment.
For Greenfield rollouts they charge £130 connection and £24.50/month rental. Note thats for service to the ISP not to you so with the added costs of the ISP to get IP transit etc. you will be charged much more than our £25/m for community FTTP and its not even a 100/100Mbs guaranteed service yet alone a 1Gbs/1Gbs one.
Have a look at the Brownfield prices and its even worse
see http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/pricing/loadProductPriceDetails.do?data=M80QNeH46o4g6JKGD604vTypQOKfNn%2Beo6vmoVhAOBZZ6rNZujnCs99NbIKJZPD9hXYmiijxH6wrCQm97GZMyQ%3D%3D
So the differences are:
BT has to wholesale with all the additional overheads of fields trials, support, accomodation etc.
The added ISP element for Sky, O2, BT Retail, Plusnet, TalkTalk etc. who have to provide a help desk, free security software, advertising and importantly an email service.
Still in interested in the costs of an urban FTTP rollout!
Somerset, BT are doing gigabit field trials whereas nextgenus has already laid and lit the fibre in the village of Ashby. http://www.trefor.net/2010/11/13/the-digital-village-pump/ This has gigabit capacity within the community and 100 meg symmetrical backhaul which can be upgraded as needed. Support and accommodation? Local support will be available unlike bt who generally put you through to Delhi. Free security software and email is available online, and a local network doesn’t have to spend millions promoting a good product, it will sell itself, unlike infinity which is costing a lot of money and isn’t selling itself because it can’t deliver in many places. I am interested in the costs of an urban roll out too, but lets get the final third done first? Let us do the hard bit where telcos fear to tread.
No, the differences you list aren’t important. The real difference is with a community approach everyone will get a connection. With a telco approach only those in built up areas will get one. And even in built up areas they will only get FTTC, which isn’t half as good as FTTH.
Also another main difference is that people in rural areas won’t have to bother paying a phone bill any more. They can also get better tv than from the masts. They can also use femtocells to get good mobile. They can dispense with Sky dishes and content can be stored locally. The future is quadplay, not ‘up to’ 40meg Infinity. Many areas can’t get decent tv or mobile signals as well as being stuck on dial up. A community fibre approach can solve all those issues too, and a lot cheaper than by conventional methods.
re the spreadsheet – are you digging 200km at £4/m? Where are these 2 internet POPs?
Only 1280km of digging!
All kit should have a 4 hour power back up.
Re the spreadsheet…
The “Internet PoP” cost is show as £800k (cell E17) which I got to by assuming 2 x 100km digs – in reality, as you say, you aren’t going to dig into central Manchester, you will probably want to dig as far as possible towards “civilisation”
build a manhole and use a BT, VM, BRT or OLO access circuit for the remainder.
There is then £500k for a 24 node backbone within the region (cell E20) which I’ve assumed corresponds geographically with BT’s 24 exchanges (for no technical reason, I’m not suggesting colocating with BT – I just don’t know the area and so I assumed there must be ~24 population centers) and I’ve assumed a dig of 5km between each of these (cell E18) If they are actually further apart, I don’t think it will hurt the numbers much since this is basically long-haul straight-line digging which is a bit cheaper.
Within each of the 24 areas I’ve then assumed a daisy-chain of digs to reach the premises. This would need very detailed planning obviously, but for the spreadsheet I’ve allocated 500m on average to dig from one house to the next (cell E23) and the number of houses visited is calculated from the number of houses in the region (23,000 – cell B5) and the take-up (25% of houses will take service – cell B8) I think these numbers were the ones Barry used in his original message.
If the take-up is higher the costs will rise but the average distance between houses served will therefore drop.
The total digging costed in the spreadsheet is I think around 3,700 km.
If anything I’d agree the dig cost budget is too low, it doesn’t take into account any public highways work, or the cost of inspection manholes, ducting etc. which can add a lot to the costs – but to get more accuracy would involve maps and getting the answer to the free-wayleave question.
re the spreadsheet – good start but…
If the digging is actually £5/m then you are £3.3m short on build funds and you need to itemise professional services, consultancy, specialist engineering etc.
The legal costs of setting up many wayleaves are also missing – any idea of cost?
Reading more I can’t see anyone digging into the centre of Manchester for £4/m
Somerset, We aren’t talking about digging into the middle of Manchester. We are talking about the final third. (And Manchester is in Lancashire). Have you ever visited Cumbria Peter?
The spreadsheet shows 2 x 100km digs from region towards internet POPs in Manchester. See what Aled says above! I can’t see this is realistic, surely you need a link from a telco.
It would also make sense to connect to other schemes in the area.
I’m sold on the benefits of FTTP and on community activism to deliver where the big players fear to tread but I need something clarified Earlier in this discussion Chris Condor said, “…people in rural areas won’t have to bother paying a phone bill any more. They can also get better tv than from the masts.” What’s being proposed here is a DIY fibre-laying job, an enthusiastic and committed community putting in place their own network. This prompts a question – will other service providers be prepared to deliver their services via a such network or will they be reluctant to do so because they won’t want to pick up the risk of providing support? I’m sure that this is technically possible but is it commercially possible? What kind of bureaucratic hoops will the community organisation have to go through to get a full range of services delivered to its members and what will be the cost of doing this?
Hi Dick,
Acutally the answers are all quite simple. Firstly although the build out is being community led it does’nt mean it would be amateur or Heath Robinson. The types of duct, fibre and splicing are no different to how any major telco would do the job. The only difference is that instead of going along the highways the community is going through farmland which enables them to dig the ducts themselves or use low cost contractors to do it. Once the duct is laid and fibre installed you have something similar to a standard telco dig out. Fibre is very low maintenance but if the project wanted it could put out a maintenance contract with exactly the same firms that BT and others use who would be perfectly happy to fix faults on the same basis. However the model I like is where we train up a number of people from within the community to do the work rather than contract it out. There are a couple of courses we can send them on at the end of which they have C&G qualifications that are the industry standard and in line with those held by staff in any of the big telcos or sub-contractors. I like the idea of skilling up local people and keeping work in the community. It also has the advantage that because they are local they can respond to faults quicker than contractors coming up from Manchester or elsewhere. Whether we contract out or use our own people the costs are similar and are allowed for in the OPEX side of the budget. We are not assuming that maintenance is done free by the community, it would be on a full SLA basis with a pool of qualified people contracted and paid by the project.
On the question of whether third parties would use the network. The design allows for 4 fibres per property explicity to cater for PIA. Passive Infrastructure Access is something that BT are unable/refuse to offer because it opens up competition which they are not happy about. The EU has allowed OFCOM a window of a few years where BT can offer VULU which is a half way house offering bandwidth across their link to the property but not handing over the link so the service provider can take full control of the whole service.
We will run a dual regime whereby the CIC will act as ISP and offer service to users of a very high standard, much higher than BT. But because we are offering access to the raw fibre other operators can and would make use of them.
On the question of cost the £25+VAT per month for the 1Gbs service includes budgeting for a full support operation at least as good as any being offered now.
Dick, I totally agree with you and have tried to point out the errors in many statements from Chris.
Video on demand can and will happen, but does not need 1G, and is dependant on programmes and channels that people want to watch being available over broadband. Debatable seeing the viewing figures for the main channels and the number of Sky subscribers.
It will be interesting to see how many ‘communities’ can come up with a sustainable business plan which will probably end up being amalgamated into a single large national company with no actual community involvement. Remember all the separate cable TV companies that are now Virgin Media? One community project had a comment that an issue could not be fixed until the local ‘expert’ returned from holiday! No business will pay for that sort of service.
Meanwhile there needs to be a solution for rural areas that will be outside BT exchange or FTTC coverage. Geographically this looks like overlapping circles so very difficult to plan effectively.
We are going through a period of change in how people access entertainment, information and social interactions. A lot is going to be via the Internet and I think we all agree that the load this places on the network is only going one way and thats up. At the moment we dont need 1Gbs but there are technology boundaries that dictate what we can deliver. So for links using copper to the home we have an upper bound at around 40Mbs and in reality very few users will get near to that. Applications like YouView which will deliver all the services you mention specify 30Mbs as the basic throughput. It is clear that copper can only just about handle todays starting point and has no headroom for applications which we have not yet dreamed up. So we all regard fibre as the future and the issue is really how do we afford it and thats what has been discussed previously in this discussion thread. BUT if you do go with fibre then the technology only offers you two options, 100Mbs or 1Gbs on the final loop. If you look at the costs associated with 100Mbs SFP optics and 1Gbs SFP optics you can see immediately that the 1Gbs is now cheaper to deploy than the 100Mbs. So logically we would light the fibre at 1Gbs. Do we then put in all sorts of throttles to pull througput down to 100Mbs or do we leave it alone? My view is that users will pull the same amount of data whether the link is 100 or 1000Mbs but at the higher speed the data will come down faster. The interesting question is in the acceptable use bit of any contract. Most ISPs either set a limit to how many GBytes per month can be consumed or say its unlimited but subject to “acceptable use”. I would suggest a good way for this to be handled, and the way I’m going to do it for Lancaster, is to go the “acceptable use” route. We would count the number of GBytes consumed by every user add then together and then take the average per user across the subscriber base. The £25/month would cover consumption up to 10 times the average figure. Users consuming more than this would have an additional charge levied to reflect their dissproportinate load on the network. I’d be interested to see what people think about that?
One thing to note is that traffic within the network would be treated seperately. For instance local content such as say a 3D/HD live broadcast of the local under 11 (or over 60s?) footie team or school nativity play would be within the community cloud and not cost the service anything so it would’nt be included in the counting process.
Barry
Barry/others as appropriate,
This is a most interesting thread. Having spent most of my working life in corporate telecommunications (albeit mostly in corporate governance rather than technical roles) I can visualise the scale of the task fairly well and I think you present it fairly. I do worry though that some others are a git gung-ho! I’m also, not surprisingly given my background, concerned about SLA issues.
Well, I suppose I ought to get involved in some way or other. All this has passed me by until very recently, so there are already “champions” doing their thing and obviously a lot of thinking and perhaps even planning going on. I’m a consistent early adopter of most things to do with computing and networking and consider myself highly systems literate on both hardware and software. I live near Sleagill. How might I be able to help?
This is interesting – http://dark-fiber.tmcnet.com/topics/dark-fiber/articles/128982-ontario-countys-200-mile-fiber-ring-complete.htm
About $30,000/mile.
Well said Barry, I hope that answers the questions. Keep em coming people, far better to ask the experts direct, and this blog has the man who has built them before so you can trust him to know what the solutions are.
Barry rocks.
chris
Hi Barry, thanks. I understand the acceptable use bit but I think that’s still missing a key element.
Let me use an analogy from the gas industry. If I lay a gas pipe across my field and connect up a few neighbours – will British Gas agree to delivery their gas through it? Probably not. I doubt if there would be an issue with the amount of gas each of us might use but there would be an issue with the quality, reliability and durability of the pipework.
So, for your self-dig network, you’ve laid the fibre but will a commercial service provider be willing to deliver its services across your it without some sort of guarantee of the quality of installation? If they say yes and their service doesn’t work – who sorts out the problem, them or you? Those sorts of arrangements have to be contractually agreed in advance. My concern is whether or not that’s possible and, if so, will it be easy & cheap to reach those agreements or will it be a right-royal, time- consuming, expensive, bureaucratic pain in the backside?
Hi Dick,
I think it all comes down to credibility. To build out a successful community network you have to have a design methodology that the industry can recognise. No problem there, what we are proposing is very much what the whole of industry would love to build but cannot figure out how to afford it. Then you need a managment team that can command the trust of the industry so that when they say “our SLA is a 4 hour fix” or whatever, the ISPs can believe it. I suppose thats no different to any other organisation. You need a product that people understand and want to buy and you need a support structure that the customers can believe in. Its not rocket science we can do it.
I have actually spoken with some ISPs and telcos and they all say they would be happy to work with us and use our network if we built it.
I think its worth spelling out some facts here. Our charge is £25/month. Our IP transit costs are budgeted at £5/month. Because of our community structure we can devote a much higher proportion of that remaining £20 to support than the normal telco/ISP can. None of us want to build a second class operation but one that is a class act and best of breed. No need to be apologetic about that we can be the best around.
Hang on!
If I were a service provider.. (oh by the way I am).
Would I choose a brand new community supported 1Gbps fibre network using state of the art technology or a cobbled together network based on 100 year old infrastructure?
Three guesses!
No one is suggesting building poor networks – just reducing the costs by using local labour and knowledge to make something happen that otherwise would not happen in our lifetime.
As Barry has pointed out its now cheaper to put in 1Gbps links than 100Mps links – this opens the prospect of local services and that’s exactly what we are planning.
In planning any service one has to understand how to diagnose issues whatever the network. If a service does not work reliably it will not be used. At the moment many services we would like to use do NOT work because of the market failure to deliver anything approaching satisfactory broadband 24/7.
Merry Christmas and a very high speed broadband new year.
well said Martin. You beat me to it.
This continues to be an excellent discussion thread.
Dick Willis raises an important point. Martin and Chris point out that local networks may be built to the highest spec, but ISPs, particularly national brands, need to be convinced. Work developing the Joint Open Network – http://www.jon-exchange.net led by Adrian Wooster aims to address the issue of linking multiple access networks to multiple providers. The Broadband Stakeholder Group’s Commercial Operational and Technical standards has also made a useful contribution. But more work needs to take place to develop commonly agreed standards for building local access networks. This is an activity that INCA will be working on with partners in the new year under the Big Society Broadband project.
Regards,
Malcolm
cyberdoyle – fortunately Martin said it rather then your poorly constructed, and incorrect, statements!
gosh thanks Somerset.
Isn’t it good to know all these clever people are around to answer your questions for you? I hope you are learning lots.
take care Peter.
chris
Thanks for all that. What I understand from Barry is that there should be no problem but there is no example, of which he is yet aware, where a commercial ISP has agreed to run its services across a self-dig network. I fully appreciate that you should be able to offer better support, Barry, based on your economics, but for a piece of work that I’m doing it’s important to me to know of a proven case study (and the resulting costs) if there is one. My guess from this conversation that there isn’t; please tell me if there is an example and point me at it.
From Malcolm, I understand that JON may provide a solution to this issue, particularly when combined with a set of generally accepted commercial and technical standards but that these are not yet in place: am I correct here?
(btw happy new year to you all and thanks for all the input)
Dick,
You are right, I dont know of any live example either. However I would say that we need to understand what we mean by a service in this context.
I think there are two levels of service to consider. The first is the physical layer which is basically the fibre from the premises to the FTTP hubs and onwards to a point of handover to the ISP?. The service on this is supported by the “community operator” and comes down to fixing any faults that occur in the fibre. An ISP or telco wanting to offer service directly across the fibre layer i.e. PIA, would want to have a direct contract with the community company that provided a clear cut SLA that could be legally enforced with SLGs and penalties built in. That’s quite normal and the only issue is what sort of costs to build in to allow for that SLA. So an ISP might want to sell a service to a customer across the community fibre and would bill the customer for the service directly. Within that bill would be an element that the ISP then pays to the community fibre operator for the use of and support of the fibre link. That’s no different to how the industry works now. TalkTalk or any other ISP will lease copper capacity under LLU and pay Openreach a fee which includes maintenance on the circuit. So the community fibre operator simply needs an understanding of what different support levels would cost to provide and offer that service/charge to the ISP. There is nothing to stop us having different levels of SLA. For instance there may well be ISPs interested in a rock bottom pricing structure happy with a 24/48hr best endevours type SLA which is cheap. Other ISPs might go for the premium market and want a 4hr fix with penalties. Nothing to stop us offering both?
Of course where the Community Operator acts as the full ISP there isn’t a third party involved so no interconnection issues arise and no one else is transiting their service across our network.
The second type of service is a higher layer one. For instance there are web sites that offer services for which you pay. For instance the Times Newspaper online. These types of services are totally abstracted from the network layer and simply leave the issues of network availability to be sorted between the end customer and the network operator. YouView, Google, FaceBook etc. are all also in this category.
Things could get interesting if we blur the boundaries. For instance there may well be new applications emerging which would benefit from having a network layer of much higher capability/capacity than that offered by the basic internet (multicast for instance). We could support that within our community network but to do so would need the service provider to host a connection into our network bypassing the lower capacity internet cloud. Charging and support issues change again but I guess these sorts of things might also be revenue opportunites?
Anyway to sum up. There are two sets of costs involved, firstly to maintain the fibre network to the end user. This can either be passed on to an external ISP who wants to run services or built into the costs that the Community charges for its full ISP service (£30/m). The second set of costs are for the other ISP services and if its an external ISP that is down to them. If its our internal ISP then its in the £30/m costs already. If members of the community shift from internal to external ISP thats fine as the costs associated with providing them with the full ISP service goes away too. In the end we could become just a fibre operator. No bad thing that, just so long as we do get fibre to everyone who cares?
Barry
Although those of us who have been online for sometime may seem somewhat ‘wedded’ to their current provider I have heard it suggested that ISPs no longer do the job they originally did. Which is to say it’s not necessary to have email provided by your ISP, who actually connects to the internet and seeks to have their ISPs home page as their homepage (apart from aol which seems to have done a better job of locking people in) ? If such things have become irrelevances then would it matter if your fibre provider did just that and the other bits were acquired from a pick’n'mix selection? These are questions asked demonstrating my ignorance: I’d like some opinions – or to know whether I’m being totally misled by going along this line of thought. Thanks
I think there is more to it than that. Some people are content to put up with truly awful ISPs and appalling limitations on contention ratios, backhaul bandwidth provision etc. in order to save a few quid. Others demand service levels akin to those required by big business. In the UK we have abundant examples of the former and a few shining examples of the latter.
Herein lies one of my key concerns. I choose to pay a little more and have an excellent SLA. I would be reluctant to accept a lowering of that SLA. Others will only be interested in the monthly charge (until it goes wrong, of course).
Shoehorning those extremes of customer requirements into a single service provider is not easy and is potentially a recipe for unhappiness at both ends of the spectrum – the cheap and cheerful clients because it will be too expensive and those after quality because it won’t be good enough.
The e-mail and content arguments are somewhat peripheral, I think. ISPs provide e-mail accounts because it makes sense for them to do so when the customer does not have his own domain. Those with domains usually get e-mail as part of the domain. I certainly think that ISPs should not be engaged in content provision. As you say, AOL has tried this for years, rather unsuccessfully in my opinion.
Lock-in is another concern in this context. At the moment I can go with any ISP I choose. Some ISPs lock you in for a year with their contractual terms but the better ones don’t. If Zen (my ISP) were to suddenly start providing a poor service, I could go elsewhere within a month. By going down a community FTTH-cum-ISP route, all freedom to select one’s ISP is gone. Great if the ISP you are now utterly locked into is and remains very good. Not so satisfactory when it doesn’t work out.
I would like to see some expert views on all this and how my concerns might be addressed.
@Aileen West: you are right – ISP’s aren’t what they used to be. A lot of (most?) people use webmail services (google mail, hotmail etc.) instead of their ISP’s mail nowadays – partly because it is easier and partly so that they aren’t “locked-in” if they do choose to change supplier. Likewise you are unlikely to turn to your ISP for hosting your web site, blog or photo album. To all intents and purposes, all ISPs do nowadays is offer Internet transit i.e. carry your packets to the Internet by exchanging traffic with the other ISPs. They have become just “Internet Access Providers” (IAP) not providing Services as such.
In broadband access, the notion of an IAP is a manufactured situation arising from the way BT is regulated. BT operates as a number of “glass walled” operating companies – BT Re
tail competes against the other IAPs on (allegedly) a level playing field, buying access circuits from the Wholesale division.
With IPstream and WBMC (BT wholesale’s broadband access products) the situation is sub-optimal for the end-users – their IAP typically connects to BT in only one location and all traffic has to travel via this interconnect. There isn’t any way of keeping local traffic local. There is also a waste of bandwidth on the national trunks (the most expensive part of any network) as the traffic makes these unnecessary journeys, which BT passes on to IAPs, which is why IAPs impose usage restrictions and traffic shaping on their customers.
The “JON Exchange” model as I understand it just seems to formalise this model, making all access networks look like BT’s and making traffic traverse the JON Exchange.
BT are subject to regulation because they have “significant market power” i.e. an effective monopoly on access circuits. Local access networks like those envisaged in this thread could be subject to the same regulation, to give any ISP access to the subscribers, if there is any public subsidy involved in the construction.
Ironically as we’ve agreed, the role of the ISP is much diminished from where it was when these rules were created. Would there be any harm in doing away with this requirement now? i.e. for layer 3 (IP) service, let the access provider route the packets directly – we don’t need networkless IAPs anymore.
Most large-scale ISPs (aside from BT and VM) have moved to LLU nowadays – installing their equipment in BT exchanges and renting the copper pairs. Is this a model that would be
suitable for community access networks. If CPW, Be or Sky wanted wholesale access to a FTTH network, rent them some space in the Digital Village Pump and let them bring their own backhaul in. They could then rent a fiber pair to their subscriber on an equal footing to the local community ISP.
Somehow I doubt they’ll be rushing to do so, but the requirement to offer wholesale access from the taxpayer’s infrastructure will have been satisfied, without compromising the
technical quality of the service by tunneling L2TP sessions over the limited backhaul down to some East London carrier hotel.
cyberdoyle. not learning, contributing with a professional engineering background!
Key to setting up any service is the ongoing support and that can make or break a business. In this world currently users with a problem are used to ringing a single number 24×7 to talk to someone about it. Although ISPs may ‘just’ provide the connectivity the support desks, rightly or wrongly, get involved in the users PC configurations and, for instance, may need/have remote access to see what’s going on.
In the models described here this needs to be carefully considered to agree who people turn to when it all stops. It can’t be the guy round the corner when people are paying for a service.
Also – where is the service management done in a community project, adding users, managing bandwidth, service attacks, inappropriate activities etc.?
Any thoughts please?
There have been lots of papers and blogs about ‘dumb pipes’. http://tinyurl.com/3ybasmc
In the same way the other utilities are delivered and you choose what you use them for, so should internet access be available ubiquitously.
Whether you want to make a cup of tea or fill a swimming pool, the pipe should supply whatever a person wants, needs, and is prepared to pay for. That is Next Generation Access.
Fibre to the home dumb pipes can supply quadplay, so everything you need digitally can be delivered to your home, by whoever you choose to buy it from. Mobile, TV, films, emails, web browsing, video conferencing, phone calls, file share, EGov, EHealth, the full monty. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, local access need not hit the main pipes at all and could be free. Gigabits for all. Impossible if we are tied to the copper phone lines. The future is fibre. We have to work our way through any issues and sort them out. We can do IT. We have the people with the brains, we have the customers, we have the need.
All we need now is for the council to get on board and not hand it all over to the incumbent to throttle us down for another decade whilst convincing government that we all have broadband. Infinity is this year’s version of Access. And those who live here are still waiting for project Access aren’t we?
chris
Somerset, the service management is all done by professionals, paid for out of the monthly fee. That has already been explained in this thread. This project will create local jobs for each level of management. Because the network itself will be low running cost compared to one fed by wholesale, a portion of the fee will be for maintenance and support, and it won’t be farmed out to Delhi.
Hi Chris,
I think the issue of support is one we need to grasp and perhaps fill in some details on. As I’ve said before there are two levels, physical and ISP. There can be no compromise on the support for the physical network. If a fibre breaks we have to fix it pdq. I’ll have a think about putting some numbers on that shortly but for the moment lets just say its a given in our plan.
The ISP layer is interesting and comments by others show how contentious it’s likely to be. As others have said there are a range of ISPs from the awful to the rather good with a corresponding range of pricing. There are four aspects to ISP support, the amount of backhaul capacity, the amount of internet transit, the capability of the equipment in the ISPs and Openreaches networks and finally the call centre operation. Where we are acting as the ISP we can only have one set of equipment for our customers so there is no way to differentiate support there. Also we will be installing equipment that will offer the highest levels of capability that are needed, not engineering for the cheapest kit. However we can offer graduated services for the other areas. For instance we can operate two virtual ISPs with different phone numbers, different Internet transit capacity and different support philosophy. If you subscribe to the high value ISP the underlying kit is the same as is the fibre link to the FTTP hub from your home. From there on you are aggregated into an Internet Transit pipe with a higher capacity and less contention than the low cost ISP operation. You get an 0800 phone number to call for support and this is routed to quality staff with enough on call to give a good service. Those subscribing to the cheap ISP and get charged a prime rate per minute via an 0871 number and have a higher contended Internet transit pipe. This is exactly what happens in the real world, we are simply modeling it within our community ISP operation. Those who want a cheap service have to accept a lower level of service and support goes with it.
In both cases the support staff will ideally be people living within the community. With modern call centre systems the ability to have a pool of qualified people on call but within their own homes who get the calls forwarded to them and are paid by hours worked and/or results is easy. Network management and user admin are all web based so that’s no problem the call centre staff would have full visibility of the system for diagnosis of problems and setting up accounts etc.
Support staff would have an account on a system and would log in and register their availability to field calls. The system would have a record of their skills set and so know what type of support calls to forward to them. I guess to get a contract with us they would have to commit to doing a minimum number of hours per month and we would need to ensure cover was there when we needed it. Perhaps pay differently depending on the time of day/day of week worked? After a support call the customer would get passed to a web page asking them to score the support given. This would then be used to grade the support person and the best would get offered more work at a higher rate to reflect their higher value to the ISP. Consistently poor grades would have the reverse effect. Those people in the community who wished to make a living out of providing support could do so from their homes. The ISP could take on board the task of training people up. Perhaps paying for good staff to be steadily upgraded with Microsoft and other qualifications.
Its back to my old favourite of keeping the work in the community and gettings skills out there too.
Barry
Spot on Barry. Keep IT Local. Big Society, common sense, fair wages for fair work, and a high level of service from local people who are totally accountable to the enterprise. Unlike jobsworths who have not got the commitment that a community partnership creates. We have the skills, and working from home becomes a possibility for anyone once reliable connectivity is available.
To be succinct – I would urge the community FTTH network be operated as a standalone community owned company, who’s (limited) role is to install, own and maintain ONLY the local “layer 1″ network including the DVP building and the fibers into homes.
The ISP side should be operated as a separate company.
This company would own the backhaul to the Internet, the IP transit arrangements, the servers located in the DVP (and elsewhere) and the customer relationship. This company can have diverse interests like training support staff and the other ideas discussed in this staff.
Partly this makes service demarcation easier, and perhaps the fundraising, but importantly I think there is a benefit in protecting the FTTH network assets in the long term from any short term problems that the ISP side might run into (including being bought out, going bankrupt, abusing it’s monopoly etc.)
@Aled
Your separation makes a great deal of sense i.e. between the layer 1 physical infrastructure (DVP, ducts, fibres, ONT) and the higher layer lit services that run on top.
Where the challenge comes is with a lack of conventional ISP/IAP willing to offer IP transit.
This is the situtaion NextGenUs faced with the Asby FttH network in Lincolnshire that resulted in providing the fat pipe internet backhaul ourselves.
Certainly where others wish to interconnect on an open access basis then they are welcome.
The JON exchange may have a role to play if it helps drive down the costs of these fat pipes and otherwise will be an unnecessary intermediary.
Aled,
I agree with the idea of seperation of the physical network and the ISP services into two operations. I’m not convinced that the backhaul should be in the ISP one though. If we get a situation where a number of small start up ISP or service providers with some sort of unique selling points that make them attractive to the community come out of the woodwork we want to help them. Who knows what the next big invention is going to be? If each had to organise its own leased fibre to manchester the startup costs get too big and they cannot afford it. It would be better to treat the fibre to Telecity as part of the core network and have our ISP buy bandwidth (probably wavelengths) on it from the fibreco. But this allows us to offer the same to other emerging users. The price for the wavelengths would be cost+small operating overhead and if additional services wanted capacity it would make that price drop for each user as we aggegated demand.
There is also the question of offering direct business service. For instance if a company decided to locate in the Eden Valley and wanted very large capacity Internet capacity we could deliver this to them outside of any ISP service as a pure internet pipe by lighting them a wavelength and passing it via our fibre straight to them. This would be much much cheaper than anything anyone else could offer so we would be making our community attractive for inward investment?
Barry
Chris – i know you have issues with sensible bandwidth but, again, you are making misleading statements. Thousands of people all over the UK work from home successfully with a 2M or less ADSL connection.
Please. please, do not mix up the method of access with the service needed or provided.
Again, I do not disagree that fibre is the only way for new installations, providing the dig cost can be sorted. But this continual rant that huge bandwidth is essential is still not justified. People have been using video conferencing across the UK and the world using 128k ISDN lines for 20 years. All the applications you list can and will run over relatively low bandwidth.
Stop condemming FTTC, nobody other than you is saying 40M, and more as technology improves, is needed. Concentrate on solutions for those with little or no bandwidth. By supplying the connection with fibre (which is the only way) bandwidth can be supplied according to the amount charged.
What Barry says about distributing calls is standard call centre stuff, but there are many examples where in time it becomes more efficient (cheaper!) to combine offices/groups/communities etc. into larger ones which will be unfortunate for the people in these ‘communities’.
I can see Cumbria as a good example of a sufficiently large community but are there many others where there is sufficient size to operate this model? Areas in the first 2/3 are out presumably because they will have VM and/or BT (actually Sky, TalkTalk, O2, BT Retail etc.) FTTC/P so does that not leave scattered properties on the periphery of exchanges?
Aled – i can see the ISP being a separate company for many community projects to get the economies of scale. Agree?
Does anyone know if the final third/first 2/3 will be defined?
@Somerset
Blogged http://www.fibrestream.co.uk/2010/05/23/final-third-fess-up-time/ asking where is the Final Third back in May and still waiting for BT to answer the question!
Perhaps with your BT contacts you can get a definitive answer?
cyberdoyle – re ‘dumb pipes’ link. Does this not refer to the US where the UK concept of wholesaling and LLU etc. does not exist?
Dumb pipes – doesn’t matter where they are, it was just a link with further links on the post. All they do is provide the backhaul, just like a big dumb water pipe. What you do with the water is up to you. That is the fairest way to buy access to the internet. The services you put on your own pipe are personal choice.
An interesting article Barry and a very useful reference.
I would however like to clear up one point.
As the Eden Declaration states that ‘…every last dwelling in rural Cumbria will have access to 2 Mbps by 2012 and 30 Mbps by 2015′, does this not leave FTTH as the only realistic option?
I understand it is a living document but that is its current objective so must be what we are aiming for today.
Somerset, many people in cumbria and elsewhere still can’t get 2meg. that is the point of all the rants. I don’t say they ‘need’ gigs, but they don’t need public money spending to get 2meg on BET or Satellite when the money is better spent on fibre. Yes Hector, you are right, FTTH is the only realistic option, and that is what we are aiming for. FTTC can never deliver to the final third, we would be worse off if that was chosen as a solution. It isn’t a solution at all. It will condemn the rest of us to the digital slow lane for generations longer. This isn’t a rant, its just a fact. As Barry pointed out in his original post, we can do a better job with the money and get more bang for our buck if we take dumb pipes out to all the rural areas and let communities do whatever they like for the last bit into the homes. FiWiPie.
chris – would you please define a ‘dumb pipe’ in technical terms, what is it and where does it run to and from and what does it connect to?
Are you sure FTTC will not deliver to any of the final third, surely some can benefit quicker than installing FTTP, particularly where digging roads and pavements is involved.
Here you are Somerset. take your pick: http://tinyurl.com/29emovh
Somerset, if we intend to stand by the declaration I think it’s irrelevant whether or not FTTC can be delivered to the final third if it doesn’t meet the 2015 objective.
These customers would require a rework of the solution almost as soon as it was implemented.
Agree Hector. every farm would literally need a cabinet. And anyway, even if BT did put a cabinet every 300 metres in cumbria it still wouldn’t be futureproof, like you say it would require an upgrade within a year or two and the incumbent has already clearly stated it won’t be upgrading cabinets. Once you settle for infinity that is what you get. We want beyond.
Hector – maybe the declaration is slightly wrong. I’m just pointing out that FTTC will work in many locations, beyond that fibre is the medium to deliver the bandwidth. It comes down to cost.
Why will customers require a rework, surely the same applies in urban areas and who is saying that?
So… Looking beyond Cumbria the government should provide the funds to put FTTP into every property. ps- how are you covering Penrith?
10M satellite just launched!
another 10 meg satellite launched you mean. Great stopgap. but not the final solution. Hylas 1 and Ka Sat. I doubt any rural families will be able to afford the 10 meg but 1 or 2 meg should be affordable. I would far rather subscribe to the fibre digital parish pump for the same cost, even if I had to dig my own fibre or use wifi to access it. The upload alone is worth the investment in fibre, satellite can never compete.
Here are some of the items that will need to be considered once the physical infrastructure (dark fibre) is in place:
1. Calculating and monitoring backhaul demand and negotiating with supplier(s) to deliver the right amount of bandwidth under the best terms.
2. Providing IP infrastructure services: DNS, allocating IP addresses, registering with RIPE, providing correct routing and subnetting, etc.
3. Working with Telecity and the backhaul provider(s) to ensure redundant routing was in place to the community network, upstream providers and peer community networks.
4. Running efficient caching services to ensure backhaul costs are minimised.
5. Providing traffic shaping to ensure bandwidth is fairly distributed, and one user cannot compromise the whole community.
6. Providing traffic shaping to ensure real-time applications (VoIP, gaming) are correctly prioritised.
7. Logging and storing Internet Access to comply with government legislation. For example, if somebody in the community was distributing child pornography that led to a subsequent investigation, the technology in place would need to ensure innocent members of the community were correctly protected.
8. Dealing with notices of alleged copyright infringement.
9. Providing “safe and censored” access for schools and any homes that have young children.
10. Ensuring systems and procedures were secure, to ensure the privacy of any nodes accessing legal pornography or other controversial material were protected.
11. Sourcing and providing end-user routers, and providing the most efficient way of configuring, maintaining and deploying such routers.
12. End user Customer Service.
13. End user Customer Billing, including processing of Direct Debits and Credit Cards.
14. Debt Collection.
15. Working with other providers to encourage them to deliver services of value over the network.
16. Dealing with faults and arranging for repairs to be carried out in accordance with whatever SLA is in place.
17. Protecting the network against unauthorised access (hacking), and ensuring all systems are patched and consistently up-to-date.
18. Ensuring spam is dealt with upstream, to ensure no impact to backhaul costs.
19. Procuring, configuring, running and maintaining all the equipment required to achieve the above.
20. Ensuring a proper business plan and budget were in place to ensure the business was sustainable and equipment regularly upgraded.
21. Managing firewall configuration to enable local nodes to communication safely within the network at 1Gb. This is a different model to a traditional ISP where no nodes are trusted and an inefficient VPN is required for intra-node communication.
22. Working with the local community to maximise the benefit from the technology and find new ways to add value to the community and bring inward investment.
23. For CIC projects, reinvesting profits back into the community.
The difference between a dumb pipe service and a retail ISP service is not simply mail and web hosting!
@Thane Brooker’s list
This seems to be a list mainly of items which I’d consider to be the responsibility of the ISP providing Layer 3 services on the network (whether it is FTTP, FTTC or dialup)
Some I’d take issue with:
Items 9 (provide censorship) and 15 (provide firewalling) I’d not want the ISP to get involved in. Their job is to move packets over dumb pipes, not implement a “intelligent network” (which may be doomed to failure.)
Likewise I’m not sure the ISP shoud be providing CPE (item 11) – this would be better left to the competitive open market, unless you were thinking this was an easy revenue stream, adding a markup onto readily available hardware, hiding the cost in “connection fees” or the absorbing the cost in the rental using long contracts.
Part of the reason I would lobby against including these services is that it does limit the ability of other (local) businesses to add value, like providing safe access for schools or VPNs for businesses.
FInally, items 15 (encouraging services) and 22 (community advocacy) are not really ISP related activities – these are things the community activists should be (and are) doing whatever the access solution.
Aled and Barry,
My list targets the private ad-hoc small-scale JFDI proposals floating around rather than Barry’s larger-scale vision. A small fibre deployment of ~ 1000 subscribers is unlikely to be be attractive enough for the major ISPs to bother delivering their service over, so a community ISP would need to be formed/contracted to split up the backhaul bandwidth and deliver to the subscriber along with billing, etc. Whether all the items on the list should be offered by default is debatable, but they are issues that will surely be raised at some point, so they should be part of the initial sales/consultation/planning process and be in the short/mid term business plan.
Barry’s county-wide proposal would be big enough and attractive enough for existing ISPs to want to offer their services over it, so the list is really irrelevant in that case.
The main point of writing the list was to highlight that it is not be as simple as providing a dumb connection and then letting the subscriber organise everything else themselves as had been previously suggested.
Excellent list Thane. And as long as BT don’t shove a load of cabinets in the bigger villages there should be profits for expansion to every remote area.
If a small community installs FTTP on their own, is this going to prevent BT from installing FTTC/BET?
My guess is if BDUK don’t endorse an FTTP installation because they consider it unsustainable, then they still have a duty of care to provide a sustainable solution as if the community FTTP never existed. I also guess the incumbent bidders will push BDUK for funding to deploy into areas with community FTTP, so they can compete with the community FTTP service in the hope of killing it off (or taking it over).
So let’s assume FTTC and BET is likely to arrive regardless of whether FTTP is deployed by the community.
Unless the FTTP service experience is better than the FTTC/BET offering, subscribers may well abandon fibre and take the incumbent offering if it delivers a better cost and experience for them. Subscribers don’t really care about the technology used to bring good service to their premises – they just care about getting good service.
What happens if, after 3-5 years of poor service over FTTP, only the remotest properties remain on the service and any everybody else has jumped ship and is receiving 30Mbps over copper?
Depends on how the infrastructure is funded.
If private sector investment as per the NextGenUs approach then all layers of network from physical DVPs, fibres, ducts and ONT to the higher level ISP type functionality are provided by the suppliers that offer can deliver best value, potentially including your company 8networks Ltd.
If the capital cost of FttH deployment is met from upfront public subsidy then it may eventuate that the most remote locations use fibre and locations where a choice of access technology exists see a spread of options taken up by customers.
The key factor is to get the pure glass path accessible on as widespread a basis as mains electricity is today, to provide a future-proof choice in other words
Presumably BT will only install FTTC where the ISPs like Sky and TalkTalk see a demand.
I don’t see how Chris can say there will be profits to expand to every remote area, the cost of digging etc. will surely mean that some properties will still be unviable.
Guy, if only. You know the people who attend the conferences you go to, or why not email the press office.
BT intend to replace exchanges with local cabinets- CPCA – how does this affect these schemes.
Peter
Its more interesting watching paint dry than contacting BT’s press office to get an answer
The Final Third is a BT definition of there being no business case for investment .
Surely it can’t be that hard for BT to provide the answers as to where those 20 million people live?
After all there can be no commercial reason not to do so, by definition…
Guy, you would think it possible but maybe they are working from the largest areas down. Aren’t you part of the industry forum?
I agree that the majority of the punters don’t really care who provides the service as long as it works and is affordable. All the more reason for decision makers to look at the facts as Barry laid them out above, and not settle for second best. We have to look to the future, and although FTTC may keep a lot of people happy it will only be a short term win. Many will be left at the wrong side of the divide and will soon realise they have it all to do again… FTTC expanded to 5 meg connections is not futureproof.
We have the opportunity to do it right. Working together it can be done. Just like it says in the original post. With a community solution profits go back into helping everyone no matter how distant, and many people will be able to help themselves, and dig to the pumps.
So the sensible approach is to involve companies and organisations with the expertise to set up and support/maintain community networks to give long term confidence and continuity.
chris- (probably reading this in the wrong order!) – community solutions will be paying companies to install, support and maintain the network so you can’t assume that there will be profits to help, people may prefer lower prices to make the scheme non-profit making. The majority of people will not want or be able to dig across gardens, pavements, roads and fields.
Or please explain how I dig down the road to the centre of the village.
Somerset,
Actually it would be the community company that would be the entity responsible for installing and maintaining the network. Some of the civils would be sub-contracted out to third parties but the overall project belongs to the community. Part of the CIC setup includes registering as a CP (CUPID code etc) and applying for Code powers from OFCOM. With these we can then issue contracts to third parties, who would do the road digs, as necessary in the same way as any other telco but we remain the controllers and owners of the network.
Barry
Barry,
That’s is correct re CIC, CUPID and the broad scope of where the community interest ownership fits in and this is exactly what NextGenUs has in place as a ready-made vehicle for communities, the vast majority in my experience of community broadband over the last decade, who want the benefits of CIC 4th utility ownership without the hassle.
Barry – thanks – does your spreadsheet include third party digging costs? There seems to be 3780km to do between residents and contractors! (£18.9m / £5/m)
Somerset,
I’ve not put up any figures for Cumbria, just the Eden Valley. To recap, based on 23K properties we should end up with a build out cost of around £20-25M. This includes things like road crossing and wall demolish/rebuild costs, access chambers, duct and fibre. It includes some third party dig costs across farmland but assumes that a fair proportion will be done by the farmers/land owners themselves (who would get shares rather than money). I’m working on around one third paid, two thirds self dig. The costs include fibre to Manchester, peering costs, Internet Transit setup costs, RIPE membership, becoming a CP and getting Code Powers, optical equipment for the fibre and a few other things like fusion splicing kit and training.
There are quite few things on Thane’s list which I’ve not included as either they fall within the OPEX of the ISP service provider or because I dont think they fit with my view of what we want to do. But these can all be argued about as and when we get to that point.
It seems to me the important thing is to decide whether to push for FTTP with all the associated community involvement needed, or do we let the county council just go ahead with a simplistic “2Mbs min with more later” type of procurement?
Everything else is premature and although it needs to be worked through at some point that point isn’t just now.
Barry
Hang on, how big is Cumbria?
Do you want m2?
Barry, 1/3 of the population of Eden Valley is in Penrith with 3 LLU operators and 21CN soon. If this had FTTC would it affect the sums?
Kate – why does YouView require symmetrical?
From the spec:
2.5 Performance
The IP stack shall be capable of handling a throughput of at least three concurrent 10 Mbps TCP sessions. It is anticipated that content bitrates could range from around 700 kbps up to 10 Mbps for future HD content.
Receivers shall be able to handle an encrypted TLS session with a throughput of 8 Mbps (RC4
cipher) or 4 Mbps (AES128 cipher) without significant impact on the responsiveness of other receiver functions.
YouView doesn’t require symmetric broadband.
I suspect one of the first NGA apps to use symmetric broadband will be a peer-to-peer BitTorrent type platform but with enough oomph for delivering video on demand. DRM would ensure copyright content could be charged for, and such a scheme would probably incorporate credits for data uploaded.
Such a system would cut the content supplier’s hosting costs, provide significant redundancy, and localise traffic. It would encourage people to look at upstream costs and bandwidth as they’d be getting credits for hosting material.
YouView V2 + Other NGA Apps require Symetrical – Lots of thing in the pipeline. R&D Spec.
Kate – please give us some ideas of what these apps might be.
P2P Next (YouView V2) http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/07/major-eu-p2p-research-project-hopes-to-kill-traditional-tv.ars
It may interest you that Lancaster University is one of the partners in the P2P next network. Barry Forde funded the IPTV kit that my company supplied and installed and this is used as the source of the BBC streams that feed the project. Lancaster are responsible for the living lab part of the project and have access to the first P2P next Set top boxes used for these trials. Quite how this will or will not be integrated into YouView specification remains to be seen.
The Internet works because it is a peer-to-peer network, not a top-down content distribution system.
The Internet succeeded because every Internet user is able to develop and implement applications – not be passive consumers of (moderated) content.
Applications are in a (temporary) stall because of the implementation of asymmetric access technologies (and to an extent addressability issues, which IPv6 will solve) but a glimpse of what’s possible is the distributed content sharing systems implemented by the TV companies.
Symmetric connectivity is a stepping stone to mass participation cloud computing. In the future, your home computer (or STB or even fridge) will be part of something much bigger.
Somerset what timescale are you looking at for a non symmetrical solution to be rational?
I wonder who could best answer this question?
What will be the benefits of NGA & FTTP / FTTH / FTTC & Symmetrical Broadband?…
I live in Rural Cumbria and my broadband speed ranges from 0.3 – 2.2MB. What benefits to the Public Service Delivery, Creative Economy and other areas could Next Generation Access and specifically Symmetrical have to me as an in individual and to the b…
I though as a little experiment I would try asking on Quora which is quite a new social media service
http://www.quora.com/What-will-be-the-benefits-of-NGA-FTTP-FTTH-FTTC-Symmetrical-Broadband
Feel free to help shape my question into something that will really get to the crux of the whole symmetrical / non-symmetrical question. If you click on the link above and sign up you can help shape the question or provide an answer. Cool beans.
I might do another one asking about other NGA applications that are in the pipeline.
Just got an interesting post back on Quora from Aled who has turned my question that I asked around and asked:
“If we are investing in NGA, why limit ourselves to an asymmetric system when we could have a symmetric one?” Indeed Aled I think that is a very interesting question…
We won’t limit ourselves to asymmetric if we build it ourselves. If the council fall for the cabinet scam we won’t have a choice. If we build with fibre and wifi we will be symmetric.
The crux is, do we want to use telemedicine? Teleconferencing? run our own tv channels, upload high quality video, play or design games, software? Do we want to put data in a cloud or our cloud? Do we want to upload quality graphics to customers? Do we want our kids to be able to upload high quality work back to school or uni for marking? Do we want to build a network fit for purpose now and in the future or do we want to settle for second best? And do it all again in a few years?
Symmetrical is the future. And it only comes through fibre. Not copper, and not satellite. Wireless ‘can’ deliver it now if there is a fibre feed to it from the parish pump. Copper can’t.
chris
copper can be as symmetrical as you want it to be, especially VDSL and ethernet. Asymmetric services are sold because that’s where the mass market is – hardly anyone pays extra to get double the upstream on BT’s “Office” wholesale services for example.
Classic BT strategy – price the service such that no-one sees it as offering good value, and then say that no-one wants the service. OK, so copper can provide a symmetric service, but it can’t do it at the pace that fibre can deliver.
@Phil Thompson: “hardly anyone pays extra to get double the upstream on BT’s “Office” wholesale services for example.”
First off, I don’t think most people know it’s an option – it isn’t easy to discover on BT’s web site for example, what uplink speed their services offer.
It also offers poor value for money, on “classic” ADSL a leap from 400k to 800k uplink isn’t a huge difference and you can pay a lot more money for it.
LLU operators like Be have been using Annexe M high speed uplinks as a selling point, which proves there must be some demand for it.
BT’s Annexe M has been out less than six months, and is only on half the ADSL enabled exchanges (i.e. the ones with 21CN) so I don’t think a low take-up tells us much about demand here.
You say “Asymmetric services are sold because that’s where the mass market is” but this is a bit of a chicken-and-egg argument,
Without real choice, people can only buy the service BT wants them to buy.
BT want to control the market, keep “consumers” in their place, and restrict the availability of services in order to preserve their revenue streams.
Agree Aled, most customers don’t know or don’t care about symmetry, its like expecting people to care about BTU or voltage for water and electric. They just want a utility that works. We know symmetrical service is important, but others couldn’t give a fig. Somebody once said to me ‘I don’t want to spend time learning how a phone works, I just want a phone that works’.
Same with internet.
If you look away from the mass market ISPs the Office products are clear (though the ADSL2+ services with uncapped upstream are starting to fog the picture). It’s only a few quid per month extra wholesale but demand is low, I agree it isn’t well marketed but that’s because price is everything in retail.
Symmetry itself isn’t important, but having enough bandwidth to do what you want is. If you were running a download business you might want a lot more upstream than downstream, for example.
“Symmetry” seems to become a matter of religion, like point to point fibre. Given the choice of an asymmetric 100/30 GPON fibre connection and pie in the sky I would subscribe to the former. Such religious determination is fine with unlimited resources, but not if it means less people get connected from a given amount of money – there is never just one solution.
“a leap from 400k to 800k uplink isn’t a huge difference”
it’s precisely double, or half the time to complete an upload. We hear people talk about how critical such a thing is, but they don’t walk the talk and buy the products.
Halving the time to upload a DVD’s worth of data from 24 hours to 12 hours isn’t a game changer.
A leap from 400kbps to 1Gbps uploads 4GB in half a minute.
I think our position on this forum is that we can have a 1Gbps symmetric network if we retain ownership of our fibre. Giving the money to BT will only give us the retail services they want us to have.
And BT are welcome to spend their own money putting their services in, nobody’s stopping them. You can subscribe to their services if you prefer. What we object to us giving them public money to do this, when we have demonstrated a better alternative.
Are you arguing that we should be more supportive of BT? That the BDUK subsidy should be given to BT and we are misguided in trying to persuade the BDUK otherwise? That our actions are what’s stopping BT putting NGA into rural areas?
cyberdoyle – nobody is saying copper can deliver symmetric. Although BT do have an SDSL product.
So… the only issue is the roll out of FTTP to every property in the UK. How can this be funded? If we can answer this then it’s all sorted!
You sounds like you work / have worked for BT – not that I have anything against BT – I have a relative who works for BT
cd – can ‘we’ build fibre to properties in towns and cities? At a price people will pay? VM gave up so it looks a difficult project.
Kate – I just try to understand the detail of proposals and sometimes find that people cannot provide it… it’s easy to say ‘we’ can get fibre to every home but there is a cost and many people are happy paying £15/month for what they get now. Some pay £30/month for Sky, but that includes broadband… It’s very complicated!
I have followed the rollout of broadband since delivering leaflets to every property in the village when BT had the slightly crazy registration scheme.
Well I am sure it is all helpful – I know I enjoy trying to get my head around all of this stuff
Nice to see others who are also attempting in their own time to make the world a better place while also ensuring public/private money (and time) is spent wisely.
Symmetrical access was always part of the original definition of broadband. This was also implied in the peering that shaped the early internet. There are two types of speed requirement peak and sustained. It is important that both are understood. Over a 24 hour period most users consume more than they contribute – however with file sizes growing it is important that when you hit ‘send’ that you can expect your content to be delivered. Imagine the home worker who downloads content in the morning, works all day on it and then needs to send it back.. You can’t relax until you know the content has been delivered. I’m sure that will strike a chord with many people .. watching that blue bar as you copy files back over the VPN!
There are many new services that can be proposed with symmetrical access and these are already in the pipeline – we are already working in local HD TV services but there are many others.
YouView (Canvas) has been mentioned as near term application. One application that is to come is two way TV. You may have already seen the use of Skype Video on the X-factor. This is very poor quality. Broadcasters can use very expensive encoders to minimise bandwidth but these also introduce delay. To get two way interaction in real time over hybrid broadcast networks with minimal delay with any quality will require higher bandwidth Upstream than downstream.
I could go on..
no go on … I’m listening. Going to have some soup for lunch but looking forwards to more updates on this thread.
Go on Martin. goan goan goan.
we have to get the message through before they build a house of straw.
We want a futureproof network building right from the word ‘go’. Symmetric has to be part of the tender.
When I was at the Networked Nation conference there was an interesting bit of discussion about the trends in volumes of data people are uploading – I was try to find it …
OK I’ll go on.. My Daughter wanted some help with her Physics A level revision.. not words you will hear too often today sadly!
Its not about what we are doing today its about what we WILL be doing in the near future. There has been an explosive change in the volumes of data being transferred. The web started with simple text, then simple graphics, then flash animation, then simple video and we are now up to large still photographs (each image >10Mbytes) and streaming video. Broadcast technology is now delivering compressed High Definition Video with its 3-D variant. Broadband links are attempting pseudo HD video (iPlayer HD is still less than broadcast SD). Delivering compressed HD introduces delay so to do large format quality real time imaging with minimal audio delay (which is very important) needs much higher bandwidth – the natural data rate for HD is after all about 1GBps.
The Internet and TV are trying to converge (and have been for a long time). After all the first computing device most homes had was probably the teletext decoder in their GEC Colour TV back in the 1980′s!!
Already most computing devices are NOT PC’s – computers are in everything. IPV6 will see a large range of devices in the home with connectivity – not just the obvious ones like TV’s and Set top boxes but also home management systems running our energy consumption and production. All these devices will need to communicate two ways and will need incrementally more and more bandwidth.
The average Laptop can now render HD video and comes with 1GBps ethernet and Wireless N as standard and soon 1TByte of storage. Home networks now move data that moderate size businesses would have craved a few years ago. We want to communicate with the outside world and yet we have a weak link in the chain.
We are not just content consumers we are also content providers – we all want our 15 minutes of fame or we want to keep in touch with friends and family or just earn a crust without travelling to the office to deliver the DVD..
Just when we though DVD was the standard we had BluRay and do not assume these trends will stop. Ultra HD formats are already being developed and just as home cameras now have rapidly caught up with HD (both still and video) the resolution will keep going. We still cannot match digitally the picture resolution that some of the earliest photographs managed back in the 1800′s – but we will.
We are all talking about 1GBps bandwidth as if it is a lot. Actually its is not that much when compared with the bandwidth that we already take for granted. Satellites can already deliver huge bandwidth to us, In fact we have about 3GBps available for every 3degrees of arc. We can already receive if we wanted 1000′s of TV channels and a lot of this could be converted (and is) to HD broadcasts and data transmission. Hybrid devices that use broadcast channels and data channels are coming fast – YouView is just one example – already FreeSat boxes can receive iPlayer and soon ITV Player and will follow the YouView model as well. Applications written for these devices will open up more services that will allow bi directional content models to be exploited. An of course these devices can store huge amounts of data – which can then be shared/traded on the network. Watch out for the next acronym.. DECE – Digital Entertainment Content Ecosystem
I think I really had better stop there for now.
hmm interesting – I was talking to someone the other day about the aspect of computers and connectivity and data in more and more devices and also things that are quite futuristic like haptics which require a lot of data and holograms/3d technology and robotics.
This is to be my 1st robot – I hope one of many! http://www.iroboteurope.co.uk/section?secid=39815&camp=ppc:google:products_roomba:G_790612525_64224850_roomba:roomba
I suppose to many these things might sound a bit futuristic and weird but that are really what is happening right now and will soon be more commonplace in domestic situations.
I wonder if our Councils have any perception of these things? I think it could be such a great opportunity for our county which relies too heavily on tourism, public sector and a few larger industries like nuclear etc. Having access to a NGA solution I think would have seismic economic benefits – but who am I? Where are all the economists when you need them?
great things are coming eh Martin? What do you think will happen if everyone here is still stuck on copper? Will they just not come to the UK? Will other countries on fibre to the home get too far ahead of us to catch up?
cd – still going on about copper – please give up for all our sakes. Focus on connection speeds, bandwidth and applications. Then the delivery method can be discussed.
How, exactly, do we get FTTP funded and installed across the UK, and not just in the Eden Valley?
Someset – Can I just ask I though it was specifically for Eden (which then – how I have not fuigured out yet has been broaded to Cumbria) and now you are talking about the UK.
As far as I understood Cumbria has been selected by BDUK to be one of four next genertion broadband access pilots which will bring hight speed connectivity to residents in 2011. Eden was also selected coincidentally as a Big Society vanguard. i understood that it was the aim to demonstrate that RURAL communites, local councils and parters can play a role in SUPPORTING NGA suppliers – and as a result improve the economics or rural rollout. So … before getting tied down with the issues that would affect rolling out NGA to Cities and Towns the focus is on Rural locations. So I’m not concerning myself too much with the issues that NGA rollout would have on the entire UK – I’m just thinking about Eden and Cumbria so start with.
Or have I missed something?
Will we get left behind? Well thats interesting.
What would have happened if Iron smelting had not been perfected in Barrow, if water had not been transported to Manchester, if the first railways had not been built from Manchester to Liverpool and from Carlise to Newcastle, the link across Shap and then later Motorways – the Preston Bypass..
Well thats the point – concentrate on the applications, there has to be a reason for investing in the infrastructure – moving goods or services from A to B.
My aim is to demonstrate the applications – I happen to be focusing on HD TV at the moment as its the one that is most bandwidth hungry and very visible. But there are others of course.
If the UK wants to be part of the knowledge economy of the future we need to have the vision to invest in the transport of the cargo – in this case lots of data. And it needs to be two way trade with no barriers.
The technology exists – does the political will?
Things have been done in the past to try and kick start things. The cable franchises were expected to deliver new high speed infrastructure across the UK to compete with BT and in some areas this did happen – mainly where there was already good service. In our area it did not. So we need a new model. There no reason for us to worry about the rest of the UK – at the moment – but sure we need to look after more than the Eden Valley.
We pay the same TV Licence as everyone else but get less channels, we pay the same broadband charges but get less speed and reliability, we pay the same mobile charges but get less coverage. We need 4×4′s to just get around and get taxed more etc. etc.
The economic benefit from being able to work locally, improve existing services and develop new knowledge based industries while enhancing and advertising tourism to our area and keeping and reinvesting some of the cash currently going out of the communities should be clear enough. If that is a model other better served areas can also follow then fine.
no point at all in focussing on speed, bandwidth or anything else. Best to focus simply on getting the right infrastructure, the rest comes easy if you get the pipes right, but trying to do it over copper is simply not possible. Lets get Cumbria right and the rest will follow. Fibre to the home or FiWiPie. If we put our own house in order we can then show the rest of the country how to do it. It is a steep learning curve, but We Can Do It. If the funding delivers the tree trunk we can build the branches and leaves. Just like Barry described. If all we have are a few expensive cabinets there will be no NGA for decades, just some infinity for a few. And that isn’t gonna be much good for long, and BT have said they won’t be upgrading it, so once you have a cabinet you are stuck with it. Our fibre can go as fast and as far as we take it.
Can anyone tell me anything about LTE & WIMAX?
Assuming you’ve read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3GPP_Long_Term_Evolution and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WiMAX then you’ll know they are both wireless protocols.
Will they be of use to rural broadband deployments? Probably not.
Wireless will always suffer from limitations:
(a) bandwidth (not just the symbol rate at the frequencies used but the fact that the bandwidth is shared, think of the air as being one big Ethernet)
(b) distance – especially with line-of-sight problems, and bandwidth degrades according to distance from the base station
(c) availability – same as with mobile phone signals, OK if you are on the M6 perhaps since the aerials are sectored to give coverage in that area, not OK if you are the other side of the hills.
LTE is aimed at replacing 3G in mobile handsets, so there will be lots of sharing of bandwidth and poor coverage outside of the currently served areas. LTE will only be deployed by mobile phone companies.
WiMAX is aimed at fixed links, replacing older microwave systems, so could be an alternative to point-to-point digs and copper access networks. WiMAX will be licenced to individuals as FWA is today.
I’m not a huge fan of wireless – OK for listening to Test Match Special but give me fibre for my data applications any day.
Thanks Aled for the info
cd – us engineering types try to start with requirements and then design a solution.
If the requirements rule out copper then fine, but please don’t keep wittering on about it!
You need to start by identifying current and future applications and size a network appropriately. But pick good examples, receiving 3Gbps video is not a good one!
eg. a minimum of 10M for HD video would rule out BET and long FTTC lines, 100M would mean FTTP everywhere. Everyone happy, but what’s the cost of digging up every street in Penrith?
I know your an engineer but you seem a little overly obsessed with digging up the streets and you seem to be the one whittering on about that repeatedly. Can we not also focus on other solutions for these areas where the pavements and other areas where digging might not be an option. I mean I don’t know but I am quite happy to have an open mind about solutions and not presume anything. I think there must be a better solution out there … we just haven’t invented it yet or it might still be in development
@Somerset : re: starting with a requirement and building a solution to meet the need.
I can sympathise with your view, but I’m not sure it is actually a tenable standpoint in the circumstances. It is an approach that does not take sufficient account of the wider issues involved.
If we think back to the roll out of first generation broadband – ADSL. At the time those of us who could be bother were connecting using dial up modems or ISDN. At that point the concept of something like YouTube, Twitter, Facebook was pretty inconceivable to most of us given the slow and intermittent nature of the connectivity most os us were using. ADSL was supposed to deliver faster connectivity, and for many of us it has, but probably more importantly it gave an always-on connection, which suddenly opened up a whole new raft of service possibilities.
I bet that there was no shortage of folks around at that time suggesting that dial up was fine, and that ADSL was a niche product. Let us not for one moment assume that we have more than an inkling about the nature of the innovative services that will appear when as and of we ever get to a point where 100Mbps (or better) symmetric is available to a significant chunk of the population. This is a disruptive, game-changing technology.
We can begin to think about some of the socio-economic benefits that it will deliver in terms of remote working, telemedicine, community safety and policing, access to education, social care, etc., etc., etc. and when we start to dig into the numbers we can fairly quickly begin to see the potential. For me it is a no-brainer simply on this basis.
Simply in terms of economic development, if I were setting up a new knowledge based business I would locate that operation where I can get access to the best connectivity at the best price. If Eden Valley is going for a second rate solution, then I’ll put my business in Manchester where I can get 1Gbps. If Barry’s vision becomes real, then the Eden Valley wins my business, anchoring, jobs, wealth and prosperity locally.
If we then consider the context of the risk of BT implementing a dead-end second rate solution, ironically labelled ‘Infinity’, as an alternative to Barry’s community-led world class solution, and take into account Barry’s expertly argued unforeseen consequences, and FTTP moves from simply being a sensible choice with something of a funding challenge, and becomes a critical strategic issue for communities and councils.
This is not an engineering led issue. Much as we respect engineers for their skills and expertise, this is a decision that should be made by communities, and implemented by engineers.
Spot on Graham. I think the key is convincing the council now to build our digital future.
I suspect I am not alone in begin unimpressed at the way this thread is turning into series of running technobabble arguments about what is/is not required.
It seems to me that we are some way from having a requirement specification, namely…
1. any sort of clear view of what the average Eden Valley household actually wants/needs/might use – now and in the future;
2. any real idea what the take up might be – perhaps half of the Eden Valley’s population lives in places that are a) close enough to an exchange to get a good service and/or b) in towns and large villages, where the “dig across the farmer’s field” model is to say the least, suspect;
3. Sensible opinions on bandwidth needs into the foreseeable future – frankly the notion of needing umpteen gigabit capacity to the home is utterly alien to me, as a computer literate geek, so it will be incomprehensible to my farmer mates. And these are the people you’ll need to get on board.
It’s all very well to be technology led and getting all excited by how many gigabits you could chuck around the place but until you know what a large proportion of the locals would use it for, it’s a solution looking for a problem… and therefore likely to fail.
Hi John, I have to say I am quite enjoying the technobabble and despite any differences in opinion I suppose it all goes some way for people to work things out in their minds. I teach the U3A in the North East of the county so I work with people with little to no experience of technology so I agree that this would mean nothing to them and your farmer mates – but the title of the thread does suggest that there might be a technical details in any comments.
You make some very good points and thanks you for your input (I will endevor to look more into your questions to expand my own knowledge) I feel that the last sentence is probably very important.
Are we looking for a solutions to a problem that doesn’t exist – and therefore is it doomed to fail? Or not …
The other questions I cannot answer for you but I suspect the maps that are being created and the research being carried out by the suits and the spods might shine a light on those in due course. But I agree and I am as guilty as any – were going a little off topic on this thread and we need order here gentlemen – order!
John,
You have pointed out the priority order perfectly.
First comes the customer and the technology follows.
Without customers, and regardless of our day jobs we are all customers of this 4th utility, then networks are literally worthless.
FttH is the future-proof option, capable of throwing gigabits of data around, and that capability only has utility when each local community decides to choose to want to pay for such a service.
4th Utility “Big Society” vouchers are proposed as the most effective means of driving demand and encouraging whole communities to step up en-masse – http://www.fibrestream.co.uk/2010/12/13/big-society-broadband-vouchers/
Ok I have been looking at the CLEO map that I think Colin linked to from the Wifi and CHIPS blog (the zoomify one) and I am just wondering if anyone can answer me why that cannot be built upon as a trunk to then lead out to parish pumps? Who owns CLEO the council? All we need is some sort of agreement to have access to the fiber for a future-proofed solution. I am sure we don’t need to reinvent the wheel so how can we built something that will last using some of the best stuff that we have?
Or it this a question for another blog?
Kate – where is the map? Words like ‘access to the fibre’ are meaningless. I think you mean ‘expanding the CLEO network to homes and businesses’. if that is possible.
Map? Wot map – I was talking about the CLEO map
. I know I might be quite idealistic and some of my suggestion might not be founded in your reality but I am trying to learn the realities of all of this – apologies if you find my whittering frustrating.
Kate,
a question that needs answering is how much actual network asset does CLEO own vs how much is rented capacity from BT?
I see. Or rather I cannot see but I do see this point. So if CLEO is politically and technically troublesome what about other ducts and pipes that could be utilized like the railway lines or overhead pylons?
One of the biggest difficulties the UK has as regards telecoms, and this is particularly prevalent in rural areas, is that BT do not sell a dark fibre product and VULA, the NGA wholesale product that OFCOM seems to be supporting, is no different.
The reason why dark fibre is important is that each community network can light up their dark fibre filaments with a wide range of different active equipment (the lights and cameras that send and receive the pulses of heat along each fibre that are used to carry information to and fro) choices and costs available.
This is a key part of what is meant by FttH being future proof – the speed of fibre for carrying information can be sized to suit without changing the physical fibre itself.
Fortunately BT is not the only choice for backhaul and other providers are keen to step up and offer dark fibre too – the obvious example in Cumbria being GEO by virtue of their extensive dark fibre network already in existence locally.
The Settle to Carlisle railway may offer another part of the fibre corridor puzzle, if the price demanded by Network Rail is worthwhile.
Everything depends on each community being prepared to step up en-masse and commit to take service – the backhaul follows automatically.
The danger with providing the backhaul first is that it then will surely allow BT to hollow out each local community by providing something temporarily better for those fortunate enough to live near a street cabinet to benefit from FttC whilst further isolating and disadvantaging those living further afield.
That cannot be an acceptable outcome for society as a whole – back in October I blogged differently see http://www.fibrestream.co.uk/2010/10/14/bduk-digital-penny-post-please/
What has changed my mind since as regards government intervention is finding out about the 4th utility voucher precedent in Wales and France and further thinking about how BT’s digital deadend technologies like FttC and BET will hollow out the opportunity for all.
I think it is a valid question for the blog Kate, it would be great if some of the council would get involved here and give us some reason why this publicly owned asset can’t be used to help solve the problems.
John, if you don’t like the heat then leave the kitchen. Simple.
I think everyone has a valid point to make and answers are percolating through and awareness being raised. It doesn’t do any harm to go back to Barry’s original point…
“Going back to basics what are we trying to do? I’d suggest two things:
1. Solve the problems of not-spots and grot-spots by getting broadband to them
2. Do that in a way that isn’t a short term solution, but a route to true NGA”
Therefore we need to build a solution based on his Lancaster plan and not fall for a patch up.
If we had waited until everyone in the country wanted running water inside their homes we would still all be going outside to the loo and bathing in front of a fire with a tin bath.
Engineers just need telling what to build, then they can build it. Policy makers need to instruct them to build it right. Build it right and folk will use it. If it doesn’t work then folk will stay analogue. If the DVLC website keeps timing out then the forms go in an envelope and a trip to the post office. Until we get ubiquity and stability most people can’t be bothered. That doesn’t mean we don’t help them, it means we build something so good none will be able to resist. This doesn’t mean we baffle them with technospeak – they aren’t interested. Who cares how something works? The car, the phone, the tv, we just expect them to do what it says on the box.
Over a third of this country has such a poor connection it doesn’t do what it says on the box, so they sack it off.
We need to build a fibre network simply because it works. It will work for our lifetimes and our future generations.
We have this golden opportunity to do it properly. Lets not waste it.
If everyone goes back to the beginning of this post and reads the original entry again perhaps it will become clearer.
chris – where does the funding come from for a complete FTTC network. H20 and VM aren’t exactly rushing around and Hampleton isn’t cheap.
My understanding of this was that it was going to be an either or solution and that the funding would stretch as far as it could – a complete solution was never fixed in stone – or mentioned in fact.
No I don’t think that John should leave any kitchen – I have to say I know if I didn’t feel so interested in the subject I would have given up by now. In fact I think I might leave now and have a chat with Harry the farmer next door – I am sure he will have some valuable input.
1. Somerset said: On December 30, 2010
Kate – where is the map? Words like ‘access to the fibre’ are meaningless. I think you mean ‘expanding the CLEO network to homes and businesses’, if that is possible.
Hello Peter,
Aileen makes it quite clear to me that a great deal of what we say well really me is long winded and boring, and goes on a bit, [here I go again]
Ok{ oops }
However Peter, if you regard yourself as a devil’s advocate, [not a thing wrong with that, and this can be very refreshing to some….er…set, as well as frustrating to others] one would hope that you would have done the site the honour of trying to keep up to speed and not just picking on the frustration you may cause rather than the possibility of expanding our knowledge with the refreshing bit of the “devil you know” advocacy by so doing? We acknowledge that the size of the site makes it complex and it isn’t always possible to know exactly what’s being said where but the post mentioning the “where is the map”
Was posted on
• Colin West posted an update in the group WiFiPie & CHIPS.. With everything.: 2 weeks, 5 days ago • View
This was followed by the map as promised by being posted in an update in the group WiFiPie & CHIPS.. With everything.: 2 weeks, 2 days ago • View •
The first post seems like a history of NWR from the year dot, I could have said [just take my word for it] but that is to rob some of the flash of inspiration detail can bring, don’t you agree? The more we all know the greater the chance of someone coming up with a new idea.
The thread was highlighting the fact that WE, the tax payer, paid for the fibre NWR use, so might it not just be a reasonable thought that all of us might speculate on the use to which it has been and could be put?
Kind regards (Kr)
Colin and Aileen
Found the map! Is it likely that the network is actually circuits (provided on fibre) rented from BT?
Somewhere I read that there are security issues using a local authority network and posssibly all the network management issues identified above make it better for a public broadband network to be separate.
chris – this opportunity, is there enough money to build a complete FTTP network? If not we to do something about it.
There is probably enough money to build out the trunk and the parish pumps. The communities themselves could then build out the branches and leaves, having access to affordable backhaul locally will make it possible. There are plenty of companies to build it if the locals can’t. The solution can be fibre to the home, or wireless in the interim. The network can be upgraded as and when the community is ready. The key is to get the trunk in and enough pops or pumps for people to get to.
Some of the fibre is owned by cleo. some is leased. There is no need to go on the cleo educational network, its the dark fibre which will make this project easier by saving a lot of new digging… but it isn’t essential, it is just a bit of joined up thinking that’s all.
“John, if you don’t like the heat then leave the kitchen. Simple.”
I shall do that.
I have on several occasions offered my assistance and there has been no uptake. I worked as a senior director in corporate telecoms for many years and have a sound commercial background as well as a good technical understanding of the issues. Frankly, if you people can afford to be so cavalier in your approach to this, I have no purpose being here any longer.
Good luck and goodbye.
chris – sorry to say this but you, unlike everyone else, is doing damage to this project. To tell John to leave when any professional help and advice should be welcomed with open arms is very silly.
You are still using your ‘copper cabal’ words today elsewhere and strangely it’s not an expression picked up by those who understand the challenges.
When you say ‘Engineers just need telling what to build’, you write off a complete profession of which I am proud to be a part of. Maybe you do not know the difference between engineer (perceived to wave a spanner) and Engineer with qualifications, training and experience (spot the difference?).
You need Engineers to gather requirements, design solutions, build, implement and support this project. Without that it will be no more than drawings on the back of envelopes produced on a kitchen table.
Words like ‘communities building branches and leaves’ will not get £000′s of funding.
Somerset, that is the best example of astroturfing from you that I have seen this year. Excellent.
Taking a step back for a minute, the BDUK promises of money seem to have clouded the issues.
Would it be useful to consider “what if there wasn’t any public money coming, what could we do to get to FTTH on our own” and see how much could be achieved?
Time could be well spent planning dig routes on a map and talking to landowners about wayleave. Get the practical side started.
Feel free to contact me about any mapping. I would recommend Googlemaps for ease plus we have the ability to convert and integrate. Some may say it is jumping the gun a bit but if people want to be proactive – let me know.
chris – would you could explain.your comment.
Great idea Aled. We could do with getting stuff into googlemaps like Libby has done with her patch. If we all did our own bits we could map Cumbria!
Good start would be for Barry to provide the lat/long/names of his 139 POPs.
I made a post on the Stanwix Rural microsite – some of you might be able to help me get my head around things there: http://stanwix.broadbandcumbria.com/2010/12/31/lets-talk-in-metaphors/ Many thanks, Kate
Just seen this video which made me smile at the moment I saw the banner: “Through Struggle Comes Change” I also note that on the crest for Carlisle the motto is “Be Just and Fear Not” – here is a nice little video I just found to take us into the New Year with all the challenges that the next year, decade and the rest of the century will bring us.
http://euanpreston.com/2009/05/26/cumbria-in-a-hurry/
chris will not let me follow her on twitter!
sorry but is this relevant? You can follow me if you like but I have to warn you – I’m quite dull I am sure
http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/broken-telephone/2010/12/swoting-up-on-rural-broadband.html
I see Computer Weekly has picked up on this blogpost and asked BT for comments on Barry’s analysis. Needless to say there aren’t any.
Not surprising, no company replies on a blog. £20m capital is based on digging 3780km (London to Israel!) at £4/m, is that valid?
What are unforseen consequences again?
the unforeseen consequences are the growing digital divide if the funding goes to BT cabinets. It will kill many community solutions and stop next generation access for at least another decade, just as project access stopped 1st gen adsl access in 2003. Barry is trying to get us to look at the bigger picture for everyone rather than a quick fix for some.
Actually Chris those are the totally foreseen consequences. What we are all trying to do on this blog is identify as many consequences as possible so that we can eradicate, or at least anticipate and cope with, as many foreseen consequences as possible. Unforeseen consequences will reamin just that until they spring up. I reckon we can all see that the best solution is to get cabinets opened up, where they exist or can be made to exist, and have the infrastructure enabled so that every community is able to seek their own best solution. As you will be aware this won’t be the same for all. Kate says that a pilot can’t expect to get it all right straight away: if we knew the best way to go about things there’d be no need for debate and there’s be no need to persuade the policy makers/ commissioners how best to spend the money. We’re doing our best to sidestep consequences we can identify and I would argue that everyone who has joined the site deserves the chance to be listened to and to have their opinion considered because it’s only when I say something to which you reply, Yes but, can we realise that we’ve found another consequence not previously foreseen!
Notice I can’t spell remain but there you are, I’ll practise.
A BT cabinet scheme will be in place for 2/3 of the UK population, why are people there not complaining about it? I think the issue here is just how those on long lines will be supplied.
When a for-profit company spends money on an infrastructure, it needs to consider demand, risk, ROI, competition, shareholder expectation and many other factors. For example, many companies will sell products at a loss in exchange for market share. As a shareholder, I think it is quite reasonable if a private company upgrades its infrastructure multiple times over a 25 year period as demand rises, even if it costs 10 times more in total.
However, unlike a for-profit company, I do not think it is right if Government spends 10 times as much public money over a 25 year period (or worse, fails to provide subsequent upgrades when needed) just because they don’t have the foresight to see what will be required in 25 years, and instead only looks at what the Private Sector has delivered today (or plans to deliver next year).
The interesting thing is, if Government builds something better than what the Private Sector is currently delivering to the first 2/3, this will break the chicken-and-egg cycle and will force the Private Sector to upgrade the first 2/3 more quickly. This can only be good for the UK as a whole, and will ensure the UK can continue to compete at the very highest level.
The question is this: If the Government is going to spend taxpayers’ money to build a rural communications infrastructure, should it spend more on an infrastructure capable of delivering 10,000Mbps in 2 directions that will last 25+ years, or should it spend less on an infrastructure only capable of delivering 2-30Mbps in 1 direction that will most likely be obsolete in 10 years?
Thane,
You have just described one of the Final Third First Objectives, namely to boot-strap the other two-thirds of the UK by sorting the rural notspots out first
See http://finalthirdfirst.wordpress.com/about/statement-of-principles/
@Somerset: “why are people there not complaining about it?”
Because this is the Broadband Cumbria blog, not the Broadband Birmingham or whatever
Seriously though, I suspect most people believe that BT Infinity is FTTH and that Virgin Media already offer Fiber Internet access.
There is more awareness amongst rural dwellers of the drawbacks of BT’s plans because of the history of poor broadband in rural areas and the previous experiences in providing alternative solutions, and the campaigning we do.
In urban areas BT will be putting in some FTTH (GPON) but even when they do FTTC the VDSL will be (relatively) fast due to shorter loops.
There is competition from LLU operators to help keep BT on its toes with regard to roll-out schedules etc.
They also have better duct networks so it is easier to roll-out FTTH and the density of housing makes for a quicker ROI which also improves the chances of a more timely deployment.
Ok maybe it is just me but it’s this “thing” (campaign?) supposed to to be an NGA Pilot to see how it could work in rural areas – I don’t think it is supposed to find a solution to fit all. I was watching this video the other day with Ed Vaizey and Jeremy Hunt talking about how it all got started and I cannot see that this project or 4 projects began with the aim of delivering (initially) a completely uniform service for all – just a much much better one and one that can be built upon and futureproof.
Linkage 1: http://www.culture.gov.uk/news/news_stories/7134.aspx
Linkage 2: http://www.culture.gov.uk/news/news_stories/7509.aspx
And I quote (rather haphazardly) “[UK currently] 33rd in the world in terms of broadband speed … some people may ask why we need these speeds … it’s about doing totally new things creating a platform on which a whole new generation of business can thrive … a country that is so good about creating digital content … Significant cost involved in this and wherever possible the market should always lead the way .. but I have always recognised that there is a role for governement as well as the market… rural areas … where superfast broadband that might never be viable … lead to the UK having a broadband infrastructure … [that] will stand comparison with anywhere in the world with a universal minimum of 2MB … hard to reach areas … I want to address the biggest cost … digging up the roads … cut these cost and straight away the cost of investing in superfast broadband becomes a substantially more attractive proposition … infrastructure that already exists .. ducts and poles of telecoms companies the sewers and other utility networks … [then goes on to talk about local media] … stronger, not weaker connections to the communities in which they live … to strengthening those tie by giving more control to local communities far greater control of their own destiny … accepting OFCOM’s recommendation on reforming local cross media ownership rules … etc etc. economies of scale…
I think that this post, which I apologise if it has turned into a bit of an odd debate about completely irrelevant topics, was originally about
1. Solve the problems of not-spots and grot-spots by getting broadband to them
2. Do that in a way that isn’t a short term solution, but a route to true NGA
I think Barry’s points are still very interesting and have obviously sparked a lot of open debate.
Kate,
the topics are all relevant, networks work at many level:
technology, social, economic, political to name but four.
Unlike the false promise of “electricity too cheap to meter” offered by Calder Hall (false as the costs of decommissioning were neglected from the sums), the 4th Utility, DIgital Services delivered over future-proof FttH does offer astonishing capability at marginal extra costs.
Experience of how people take up tools, services and utilities suggests that opening the digital taps, as only FttH can offer, will provide the greatest lasting benefit to society.
And it is for that very reason that the monopoly elements of infrastructure used to deliver the 4th Utility must be regulated and so prevented from abusing its monopoly position – the CIC Social Enterprise approach being one way of doing this.
I was thinking irrelevant as in like me mentioning I would like robots in the future and somerset complaining that chris will not let him follow her on twitter and John L feeling unimpressed at the technobabble arguments about what is/is not required.
Also slightly off topic but also of interest to me: Q. Will one of the unforeseen consequences of NGA mean that more of the city-folk will want to “escape to the country”? (I am kidding, I have no problems with migration) It might be like a anti-industrial revolution where people can move back to more sparsely populated areas and still have the same quality of jobs and wages.
I used to live in a rural area. I went to university. I have a career and a family. I can’t come back into the area where I was born because my work and life needs access to a reasonable connection. If rural areas had connectivity then my family and I could come home and bring a business back with us.
marie.
Marie,
I certainly see one of the major benefits of decent connectivity to be helping to reverse rural depopulation and you very much confirm that sense.
Kees Rovers, the instigator of the Nuenen FttH project in Holland, talks about the completion of the Industrial Revolution as being when people are able to have cottage industry employment again, latter day weavers and spinners (of or at least using fibre!).
Would someone please explain the voucher scheme in detail. Elsewhere I have asked but have not seen a reply.
Also what, exactly, is a community? How, exactly, does the community have a say, is it any difficult to a Parish Council?
You thought Calder Hall was free electric, same about Hinkley Point down here.
Final Third say minimum of 2M, bit low?
FTF says 2Mbps symmetrical i.e. the 1984 definition
For government services, that is sufficient performance to fulfil most tasks even basic 2 way video calls, given the symmetry requirement.
In terms of being a bit low, it is the bare minimum really for a entry level service borderline capable of dealing with iPlayer and youtube (though not HD versions)
Big Society Broadband Vouchers
Part of the puzzle for BDUK is how to drive demand for better broadband.
How to accelerate and deepen uptake particularly from the so-called Digitally Reluctant?
How to encourage folks in general to take an interest in boredband (sic) and move en-masse at the same time to the stage of demanding future-proof service?
Allied to the above, how on Earth to offer some genuine hard-edged benefits for all the voluntary effort, pledges and good will that Big Society must have in order to be successful?
Whilst by no means a perfect solution in the sense of completely assuring the best outcome for Digital Britain, Broadband Vouchers nonetheless offer a simple way to ensure those who will be paying the bill for broadband in the future directly make their choice, have their say and get what they ask for
Big Society Broadband Vouchers, building on the Welsh and French rural broadband models, enable community-led procurement which means that each household and business gets to decide how any funding gets spent.
Both community-led procurement and participatory budgeting are key practical ways of empowered the Big Society ethos..
A simple application of Broadband Vouchers is to subsidise the installation cost of the Customer Premises Equipment (CPE), the lights and cameras that send digital information to and fro each fibre to the home.
For example, if an FttH service costs a customer £150 to install and their voucher is worth £100 then the subsidy helps to accelerate and deepen demand and make service uptake happen faster and further than it otherwise might.
Offering the additional voucher value incentive of an “extra third for the Final Third” in return for the local community coming together around a parish-wide common solution provides an additional Big Society bonus and this can easily be further scaled on a District or County level too.
Now, to be sure, there are legitimate concerns as to whether ordinary non-technical expert folk will make the right choices which can be addressed by education above all.
The key point is the shared sense of ownership of the outcome that is engendered – in other words that people do not feel that a top-down solution is being imposed upon them.
Big Society Broadband Vouchers serve to address the First Mile and Dark Fibre Backhaul Rings deal with the rest of the pure glass upstream supply chain – more on that subject in a subsequent posting.
EXTRACTED from Fibrestream blog on December 13th last year.
A community is whatever you want it to be so it could be a parish, a group of parishes or a part of a parish.
It seems to me that perhaps this thread should have been called the UNINTENDED consequences rather than the unforeseen. We have actually all been discussing the possible unintended consequences: as I said earlier when identified they stop being unforeseen but may not yet have been avoided! Barry is trying to point to ‘the law of unintended consequences’. There is no such law but it often arises in political circumstances ( usually as a result of poor legislation defined by a response to some populous peril e.g the dangerous dogs act being a response to attacks by dogs on a (small) number of people, often children, leading to great disquiet and a demand that something be done. The consequences are normally a surprise to the legislatiors but often absolutely obvious to anyone with common sense which brings us back to where we are now in this thread! Barry could see what would have been the unintended consequences had he not brought them to everyone’s attention. The more important business must now be to persuade the decision-makers that such dangers exist. When they aren’t unfoeseen to them they can’t proceed without deciding that the consequences are acceptable in their downside or unacceptable and so a different solution must be found. Our task is surely to suggest other solutions and point the Council in those directions.
Aileen, thanks for this but I had seen this and asked for further explanation.
Is a voucher really any different to TalkTalk offering free connection (£30) and a free router (£70?)? Plus there is the need for each property to find £1000 for the share allocation, not sure how you sell your share in the future.
The word ‘choice’ is mentioned, that’s what I don’t understand.
I don’t see how vouchers let people (a person) get what they want, someone might want to use it for satellite. it’s basically a way of ‘encouraging’ people to vote for a particular solution which benefits the majority, why not say that!
Peter,
the 4th utility voucher approach is geared to Big Society.
Folks are being asked to be locally active, to volunteer time and/or effort and/or professional skills, to waive wayleaves – all in the interests of getting a future-proof FttH infrastructure in place, professionally designed and durably installed at least cost.
4U-Vouchers (I hereby copywrite that term) provide a direct linkage between Big Society efforts and the power to see choice implemented.
This is important because there is no value in a community making an informed choice about the solution it wants only to be left powerless and see that choice ignored.
The extra incentive proposed is an extra third for the final third so, for example, 12.5k connections across Eden excluding Penrith could each have a £400 4U Voucher, which in turn would have a value of £300 for a stand-alone satellite installation and gain the extra £100 in value if clubbed together with the majority parish choice.
Given matched funding from a supplier, and NextGenUs UK CIC is looking for 20-25 final third projects to deploy during the course of 2011, then the economics stack up….
IF there is sufficient community demand to be sustainable from the outset once the FttH network is built.
The beauty of the 3U Voucher approach is that it is fiscally efficient – i.e. funding is only redeemable upon service delivery and the risk of investing in, e.g. dark fibre, infrastructure that no one puts to use is eliminated.
4U not 3U – its a real drawback with this reply system that there is no delete or edit function
Is it just me but I am looking for more negative stuff to look at? I get the feeling there is an elephant in the room that no-one is talking about. Just to get the ball rolling … I went to the pub at Penton this evening, it’s the top right corner of Cumbria out through Kirkandrews Moat – about 12 miles out of Longtown. It’s farming, shooting, fishing country and a stones throw from the Scottish border. Reiver’s Country and it got me to thinking that this is quite a scary thing that we are talking about – I mean it’s really quite far, even from CLEO, even from the railways, obviously water and electricity reach but these are places that are quite remote – on the edge of Forestry country and ancient woodlands. It’s very peaceful and folk like it that way (I presume or they wouldn’t live there). These are just some thought that I had driving out there with my mum and dad.
Anyhow we were visiting some friends of theirs who have just moved from Australia in Novemeber and taken over the pub from the previous incumbents who have just retired. Sorry I tend to whitter. Now while having my 1/2 of larger lime top I was accosted by Linda who now runs the pub/restaurant/b&b and asked if I could give her a hand with a bit of PC software she bought from PC World to design some business cards (No advert intended I am just stating the fact – also my dad asked to borrow it after her – people out in these parts are quite into doing stuff themselves if it saves money and sharing stuff; thrifty? tight? savvy – sensible?).
The other thing that I noticed was that 2 other conversations going on in the pub (of which I was not a part) were discussing technology in some way (It’s a habit I picked up from my granddad, I often like to sit quiet and listen in a crowded room). One gentleman (who used to be a senior “black”? tax inspector) was talking about how the cottage that he has just converted (holiday let) needs a website and another couple of guys (sheep traders – like the stock market with rare breeds) at the bar were talking about wireless printers and how to get them working with stone walls (I know it’s like some bizarre 4th dimension and there is no way I could make this stuff up!).
Now on the way out to Penton I was a little apprehensive and it is not to say that I don’t believe FTTH is possible it’s just more then my mind can boggle – and I also sometimes think … if people really understood what FTTH was – that their home would be futureproofed (whatever that means) would they be frightened of it, or would they say: hell yes I’ll have some of that, because even if I don’t need it, someone else in this village (outpost) might and it might help me to sell my house in the future? I didn’t bother mentioning NGA – I though I had had enough tech talk for one day
(That isn’t true, I could talk about tech all day)
So, if you can think of any elephants in the room, I am asking you – just come out with it because as Aileen has said – I/we cannot understand what we are proposing here unless it is all out on the table.
It is now 1:44am I am going to bed and I will sleep on all this. nite all.
Elephants in the room eh Kate…
The thing to always bear in mind with telecoms is that there is a whole eco-system of suppliers and intermediaries who for the last quarter of a century have been making a fortune from providing the customer, i.e. all of us, with the means of communicating at a distance.
The number one insight I would share regarding telecoms networks is that their value depends on people using them – without customers then such networks are literally worthless, just depreciating liabilities rather than valuable assets.
It is that insight that has led me and others to look at this emerging 4th Utility, the transition from legacy copper wires to future-proof fibre to the home, as a golden opportunity to do some serious rebalancing of how the telecoms business operates.
Put simply – put people first.
Hence why NextGenUs UK is a Community Interest Company – to deliver service on a commercially sustainable basis whilst ensuring through external CIC regulation that each local community is safeguarded from monopoly abuse.
Ok, I am clearly not sleeping but I did find an interesting article – it is kind of about Big Society you can read it here:
Linkage: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nudge-nudge-wink-wink-how-the-government-wants-to-change-the-way-we-think-2174655.html
Now always looking for the positive I liked the quote:
“Evolution has endowed us with a social brain that predisposes us to reciprocate acts of kindness, not to just blindly help anyone and everyone, regardless of how they treat us.”
Ok I’m defiantly going to bed now.
Guy – at least with telecomms people have a choice who provides their service, BT, TalkTalk, Post Office, VM, Sky etc. Have you looked at the Tesco monopoly that’s appearing around the country?
So who decides the value of the voucher? And do you consider £4/m to be realistic for the 905km backbone dig? I’m interested in knowing if every home could self dig etc. 500m on average.
Guy – would you please explain what you would tell the residents and businesses of an area when you send them a voucher and what they would do with it.
I assume different properties will have different ones depending on what could be offered. The installation and rental costs of each option would have to be included
I don’t know but maybe that is a conversation for it’s own thread? It seems like a big topinc and quite all theoretical stuff.
The real stuff seems to be more about being quite clear about the aspirations of the local people and their reaction to vast changes in technology that they neither understand or, possibly see the need for. If the magority of peopl ahve a computer that does what they need it to do, and although would like it to go a bit faster arnt interested in spending huge amounts of money on or for then as somerset says – will it be sustainable. I suppose the business and public sector stuff will come in there but what makes anyone think – including my own aspirations for the county that building anything will change the fact that it has to be inherently wanted or needed to be of any benefit. I am all for FTT … but it has to be the right solution for the overwhelming majority and no amount of “education” or pushing from third parties will change the sustainability of it. Or will it?
Sorry again – it might be better on it’s own thread
Hi Kate,
The price people are willing to pay is an issue, particularly as incomes for many in Cumbria are very low, but actually FTTH could reduce people’s current bills for telephone and broadband. This is actaully a threat to the traditional telcos as their business models may need to change.
Personally I believe there is little point in asking people what they want. Before electricity arrived in our dale some people would have said they were happy with oil lamps, but they would not be without electricity now. True high-speed broadband will be similar, only with faster take-up.
If the government support solves the backhaul problem, then the pricing could be very attractive, so why settle for less than FTTH – a solution that will provide whatever broadband speed you require.
Wow. Spot on John. Again. Well said.
Not wishing to go on and on about the same point but looking outside the box (as they say) a few meg is sufficient to reduce phone bills. Look at what Skype has done, particularly for mobile users, and how some ISPs (TalkTalk?) have tried to limit its usage.
Are there any traditional telcos left? Are TalkTalk and Sky telcos? In a few years 2/3 will be FTTC/P and LLU, that will interesting. Will we all be watching TV on demand, probably as internet connected TVs spread.
I agree that asking people what they want may be a disaster. I’m still waiting for a plain English explanation of the voucher scheme.
Another thought – what % of populations in rural areas are actually close to an exchange (eg the 23 in Eden Valley) and get 6M or more. They could be difficult to persuade to change unless it’s free installation and same or lower rental. And they presumably will want to keep their phone line as it works when the power goes off, unless there is an equivalent box to put on the end of fibre. Is there?
Can’t stay stumm any longer! Here’s my .01p contribution to the final bit of this debate. I have spent 15 years campaigning for broadband, thought I was pretty au fait with the sorts of things I might want to use a big fat pipe for until I went out to the USA in January last year and plumbed myself directly into the Utopia 10Gbps fibre. My mind was blown! Things that had never ever occurred to me previously have stopped me sleeping for weeks and months since!!
I have been saying for over a decade that you cannot sell broadband (of any flavour) to anybody in words. It’s true – you have to SHOW them what they can make it do so it triggers their imagination too.
I can pretty much guarantee that of the 20 or so posters on this thread, less than half (probably less than 5) have ever been anywhere near a true broadband connection in their life i.e. 100Mbps+ SYMMETRICAL.
Councillors who are making these important funding decisions for our future (here in Cumbria, Somerset – this entire site is about Cumbria, it’s in the name!!) should be put on a ferry right now and shipped to Amsterdam or Neunen to see what the fuss is about. Then, they should fly to Milan next month and talk to the 4000+ people – many of whom have used a true broadband connection and know EXACTLY why we need to focus on fibre, the future and start worrying about the design of the NEW networks that need building not how to patch up the old ones.
And I’m still going to Eindhoven to build a 100Mbps+ demo unit with the Uni so that anyone, anywhere can actually get their hands on what a true broadband connection looks like, wherever they live, work and play, and my first port of call on my return will be every Council Chamber and Parish Council meeting in this fair county until people see the same light I did in Utah.
Bickering about what speed people need when there are still thousands of people in Cumbria who have never made a video call, don’t know what telehealth is, nor understand that this fibre network and BDUK project will probably finally make their mobiles work, is a waste of our otherwise astoundingly positive energy.
@Lindsey,
I agree with what you say about demonstrating FttH being the ONLY way to educate people and I go a stage further:
What Cumbria needs now, right now, is a live FttH network deployed and in service to provide that demonstration in a local context – anything else is second-best and the idea of wasting money on yet more papers/slideshows talking about the benefits is plain silly.
What NextGenUs is finding untenable is the delays that are blocking building such a demo network that are being caused, totally ironically, by BDUK and the whole uncertainty caused by this market testing procurement malarky.
Without this premature government intervention then Cumbria would have FttH in operation already and the offer remains in place:
NextGenUs is ready and willing to privately invest and JFDI and we cannot compete against the market distortion that BDUK is creating – how is this situation in the interest of Cumbrians, present and future, heaven only knows…
The solution is simple:
Broadband Vouchers to let each household and business in Cumbria choose what they want.
BDUK must focus on driving demand, working with public sector to simplify deployment, remove red tape and stop meddling with the market!
To repeat, there is no market failure, only failure by BT to invest in Cumbria and these are different things entirely.
The opportunity for every community broadband champion and parish in Cumbria is simply this – step up and take advantage of BT’s unwillingness to invest in future-proof FttH and get work together to find better ways of providing service.
NextGenUs is a Social Enterprise dedicated to putting people first and we are ready to get on with the job now.
Well said Lins. I wondered how long it would be before you blew…
totally agree, and once we get some networks up and running people will understand. All councillors will have to attend the opening ceremony and see what is possible. There will be no more talk of infinity after that, it will be “lets JfDI Now” Fibre to the Home for all, or fiwipie at the very least, but no cabinets and definitely NO to BET.
Good scheme – what will the demo unit show?
@somerset – the demo unit will, as I stated, show anyone, anywhere, what a 100Mbps, quality, connection is capable of. You can build one too…..as an engineer, it should be right up your street! We’ll compare notes. ;o)
As for fibring up Penrith, leave it to the marketplace if you need to. The FTTH figures for Penrith, as any other UK town with a similar population, are commercially viable. However, allowing the telcos to cherry pick such urbanisations and omit the rural areas and market town hinterlands with their plaintive cries of “We simply can’t afford it, we need public subsidies, there are no customers in rural areas, no demand has been exhibited” etc etc – all utter tosh), can skew the viability of far more exciting, future-proofed, community-owned projects by removing easy-lay, reduced cost deployments that can help subsidise the more difficult, hard to reach, costly, remote FTTH/FiWi consumers.
I have in front of me a spreadsheet (with hard facts and figures based on actual deployment) received this week from the rural USA which, even with UK-based amendments, shows that towns the size of Penrith (and smaller) are going to be damned profitable during this decade, whoever does the the FTTH deployment. And no, you can’t have it – it’s commercially sensitive!
We need to work out how Fibre to the Home will be funded in towns like Penrith and cities of the UK.
Some posters seem to forget this site is for rural Cumbria.
see http://broadbandcumbria.com/about-the-campaign/
We are fighting a cause, the cities will be quite happy with their cabinets until they see what our results are with NGA fibre. Then it will be easy to fibre them up out of our profits, and reap the rewards from everyone having a decent futureproof connection at last. On the other hand, once we get the rurals on to fibre broadband you can bet your sweet bippy that the incumbent will get its finger out and fibre up the cities before we get chance to. This is how to stimulate the market, get competition into it instead of letting BT have all the cards and not sharing them. We open a new pack.
Concentrating on the job in hand, getting to all the notspots is our priority, not wittering on about pavements.
Thanks.
Guy – please explain exactly how a voucher scheme would work. What would they say on them and what do people do with them?
Great article, with great explanation that . . .
“they (BT)refuse to supply dark fibre to third parties”
. . . that is the problem in a nut shell in every country in the world today.
Japan solved this by deregulating NTT, thus in 2000 Japanese consumers received 100Mb/100Mb for $55 per month…Thanks to the de-regulated Fiber by 2006, they could swap out their Fiber Modems and could get 1 Gbps/1Gbps for $52 per month. The price going down as more and more subscribers come on board in spite of the exponential increase in a customer’s bandwidth is a very STRONG indication that the Japanese economic market for Internet access is working.
Many of us understand that you can multiplex a single fiber cable and increase the bandwidth from 1X to 1024X, this has been true since the early 2000s. And when a company runs Fiber, they do not just run a single strand…that would be a waste of time and money…they just leave the extra Fibre dark.
Here in the USA, the current non Fiber providers – read Cable, DSL, Telco… (and the non synchronous Fiber providers like Verizon who only offers 50Mb/5Mb) are quick to deny the reality that consumers need high levels of bandwidth and that ONLY Fiber To The Home (FTTH) will do the job over the long haul.
Any solution that does not put Fiber in the home of the consumer is at best a waste of time and money, and at worst a Ponzi scheme perpetuating the bandwidth scarcity myth that most providers rely on for their failed tiered pricing plans.
Consumers in the USA are no longer waiting for the telco – cable – wireline – wireless provider oligopoly to provide Fiber any longer. Consumers are beginning to wake up and have noted that their (providers) actions since 1990 have shown their true colors. That they have no intention of providing Fiber To The Home unless forced to do so. This is in spite of receiving in excess of $900 Billion SPECIFICALLY for Fiber from American Tax payers (money + taxes + fees) since the 1990s. They have had three decades, over 30 years to provide Americans with Fiber. They have failed. In fact it is reported they spend in excess of $1.5 Million per WEEK lobbing elected politicians to avoid fulfilling their 1990 era promise of Fiber…for which they were amply paid I might add.
Heck Chattanooga finished their FTTH build-(approx 2,500 businesses and over 20,000 residences) out 7 years ahead of schedule with an infusion of cash of barely over $100,000. EPB finished in 3 years instead of the planned 10 years. As of December 2010 they are finished with the initial Fiber build out and are already looking at expanding their offering thanks to the huge demand for the service by their citizens. It should be noticed that the incumbent provider had been fighting against EPB and Chattanooga since the 1990s to prevent this reality. Thankfully they failed.
In spite of these un American and anti-competitive providers a few American communities have provided FTTH to their citizens. In every case they have been fought tooth and nail by the incumbent provider whether telco or cable. In spite of the up hill battle, almost 30 communities have SYNCHRONOUS FTTH Internet in the USA. When Google announces their 5 Go Big With a Gig communities there will barely be over 30 communities in the USA that are providing true and honest Internet service to consumers, citizens and residents.
This map shows the locations of SYNCHRONOUS FTTH US communities/cities: http://sn.im/1axal4
It is interesting to note that Utopia in Utah provides FTTH via User Owned Fiber. Home owners pay $1,500.00 and their community provides another $1,500.00 via bonds for this purpose. The home-owner’s real estate increases in value thanks to this User Owned Fiber.
Most of my friends are planning to move to one of the 30 or so communities on the map in order to secure FTTH Internet for themselves and their posterity. We have waited 30 years, we will NOT wait another 5 years. Thankfully we do not have too.
Over time as more and more home buyers insist on FTTH as their number 1 consideration when purchasing a new/used home, communities will have no choice but to either force their providers to provide Fiber or kick them out of their communities. Those communities with FTTH offerings are recovering faster economically than others as businesses too are relocating bringing jobs with them. Makes these communities a better long term investment in all areas, especially Real Estate.
What BT and their ilk should worry about more is the loss of TRUST that their inaction, bad business practices and customer no service methods have caused among their consumer base. After multiple decades of abusing their customers TRUST, why would you even want to do business with them, ever. My friends and I do NOT and we are instilling this legacy in our children as well. The great things about our kids, they are more Internet savvy than many of their parents, they get it.
Let em choke on their non FTTH, non synchronous, non net neutral inferior Internet offerings.
A couple of the FTTH communities thanks to synchronous bandwidth are allowing their customers to run their own personal cloud, file and email servers from their homes….long overdue and about time!
Even 10Mb/10Mb at between $25 to $50 per month is much, much better than a promise of “up to” anything, throttled back to less than 100Kbps/30Kbps, the Cable provider reality in the USA today.
In Japan, NTT, thanks to owning the Fiber once again found themselves in the dominant position in spite of De-regulation, I suppose consumers in both England and the USA are going to have to get a little bit more upset at the incumbent provider’s customer-no-service and insist on FTTH or they will never get it! Our combined telco/cable Internet history shows this truth to be self evident.
Here in America, we are relocating and moving for FTTH, problem solved.
Funny how synchronous Fibre bandwidth solves the net neutrality issues as well, once the bandwidth scarcity myth is put to death, there is no longer as large an incentive to censor, restrict and limit, why waste time and money on software and/or hardware if its simply not needed?
The Future can be BRIGHT, but only with FTTH, nothing less!
A simply brilliant post! Should be required reading in Carlisle and every other county town during this year when decisions are being made about to whom the money should go.
This post sums up perfectly why Cumbrians must settle for nothing less than FttH and why Giovernment must structurally separate BT infrastructure from retail services see http://www.fibrestream.co.uk/2011/01/06/wangauges-lessons/
@lamapper, that was a great comment, I just hope Lancashire County council read it too, been to a meeting with them today and I don’t think they are getting IT. I will email them a link to it. They can then see this comment of mine too, and so can Cumbria County Council. They seem to think that NGA can come through copper just because BT say it is ‘superfast’. Its only superfast narrowband coppercrap and we want them to put any public money into fibre, for a futureproof solution and to keep the North West flourishing, not tick damned council boxes.
chris
chris – you need to just emphasise all the many benefits of a community FTTP solution. A rule of selling is not to rubbish the competition. And using made-up words like ‘coppercrap’, ‘copper cabal’, won’t influence anyone. And… FTTC is not ‘narrowband’!
@somerset – ISTR that FTTC definitely falls into the correct narrowband definition. Care to prove otherwise?
VDSL is broadband, fibre is baseband. Multiple frequency bands vs single frequency. Simples.
“High speed internet access” is probably what we’re actually discussing, although with all the talk of TV maybe even that is debatable.
Narrowband refers to dial up, up to 56k. Broadband refers to connections, typically over ADSL, with a minimum of 512k. Clearly both FTTC and FTTP are not ‘narrowband’.
As in an Ofcom quote – ‘Whilst there was a sustained fall in the use of narrowband access as a result of consumers upgrading to broadband,
narrowband continued be the most widely used method of accessing the Internet in 2002, particularly in the home. .’
This is the first time I have heard ‘narrowband’ used in this context and it looks like it’s just for effect, please, let’s not muck about with definitions!
Ah yes, now I remember – all accurate definitions of technology must fall hostage to marketing hype to suit the sales teams and shareholders. Who will claim they are ‘simplifying matters’ because all consumers are morons.
C’mon Somerset. You are wasting space on this forum with your trivialities, constant sniping, picking on individuals who have done more for broadband than you can probably ever claim to in this life etc.
We are trying to come to a consensus about what Cumbria needs. Positive input only, or go set up a forum for your own county, who obviously need your help because I don’t see them on the BDUK project list.
So the industry definition is wrong? I am trying to help you and Barry is now producing some detailed plans Everyone should look forward and stop criticising alternative proposals that may appear. Councils want to hear the benefits of a solution and the last thing you should do is rubbish the others, it’s not professional. Let them show why they are not the best.
re Somerset, it’s not such an issue as some places like Cumbria.
FTTC going to Penrith in March 2012.
Comments aren’t in date order!
Symmetrical is important for a few users, but not for the majority. If it comes with the product then fine, nobody will object.
I agree with Phil, the spreadsheet is very sensitive to the unknown area of digging costs, particularly across roads (any bridges?) and legal costs, consultancy, planning etc.
If you click the “Reply” link under a post your comment goes under that post, if you just scroll to the “Leave a Reply” box at the bottom the comment goes at the bottom in date order.
Thanks!!!
If anyone wants to delve a little more into the technicals of xDSL have a look at
http://www.ja.net/documents/development/llu/llu-technical-document.pdf
which I did a year or so ago.
Barry
What is depressing is that this is still an argument. History is useful. While developing the first generation cable modems (56Mbps/2Mbps) for a major US company back in the late 90′s we also looked at the physics behind alternative technologies. This was a time when 100Mbps services were starting to be rolled out to apartment blocks in Italy etc. via fibre. The conclusion was that xDSL would struggle to ever achieve even that speed and would be superseded within 10 years just as V92 dial up modems were obsolete almost as soon as they came on the market. We concluded then that we would not be investing in xDSL technology – the money went into HD TV.
At the same time bosses in the Telco industry were still saying “no one at home will ever need more than 64kBps”.
At the Carlisle event at the weekend however we heard it clearly from BT that xDSL could just about achieve 100Mbs “in the Lab”. They are also going to be doing trials of 1Gbps FTTP in Suffolk. They also said that bandwidth will not stop there. So I suppose the telco’s today are NOT saying that no one at home will ever need more than 64Mega bits per second – that at least is progress.
Barry’s analysis has shown us (and Guy’s has show it on TV) that 1Gbps FTTP is both technically and financially feasible. Companies around the globe are now developing business models and solutions that now assume that the networks will be be built. As well as live HD tv and two way video/tv there will be a market that delivers the latest blockbuster entertainment electronically – it is all coming rapidly. I read of one German company now offering 500Gb hard drive in the cloud services. Video services already account for 35% of all internet traffic globally.
We need to concentrate our thoughts and activities on making it happen. HERE.
But – before anyone picks me up on this again – we need to ensure that everyone gets included in the plan. BT are rolling out from the centres of population but the BDUK money should be targeted at starting from the most deprived areas and hopefully we will all meet in the middle.
As I see it, from afar, there seem to be 2 issues that need answering first. One is that funding will only be for a wholesale solution (correct?) and the other is that any proposal must include full details of the end-to-end solution for customers. So this must describe the supply and support for customer equipment and details of how the installation will achieved. This must say more than ‘we will recruit local people to help for little or no cost’. How will you describe what will happen when a customer pays his money but can’t dig a trench across his garden?
Nearly a year later, and what has happened so far?
Well at least we have the B4RN project started, and digging will commence in January providing we get take up of the share issue in December… http://www.b4rn.org.uk
So Lancashire is going to go with Barry’s plan. Well some parishes in Lancashire are. I guess the rest will be waiting for infinity, because LCC is going to be announcing the winner of its tender process soon, it will either be Commendium or BT. So no help for rurals from the two companies who got project access money and gave cumbria ‘broadband’ in 2005.
As Ali says, they can have infinity, we’ll take beyond.
As Chris says time has passed swiftly, well over a year since Rory’s Rural Broadband Conference at Rheged and all the excitement that event engendered, including this very website itself.
Despite Big Government in the form of BDUK specifically and generally understandable uncertainty surrounding state aid, real progress has been made behind the scenes that reflects the significant and long term private investment in the community interest made by the NextGenUs Group into NextGenUs Cumbria CIC.
The First Mile Access Network is deployed and active;
The Dark Fibre path through Lancashire and Cumbria is complete and ready to light up at Gigabit speeds;
Combined together, these Fi:Wi elements will shortly be delivering SSB (Symmetrical Superfast Broadband), FROM 10Mbps through “BT Infinity=40Mbps” and beyond to the Gigabit realm in due course, dictated by public, private and community demand.
http://www.nextgenus.co.uk/north-west/cumbria/
Apologies this has taken so long to accomplish and great credit to Craig Brass, now Managing Director NGU Cumbria CIC, for successfully bringing service ready to market.
All delivered on a county-wide, ring-fenced 100% Not for Profit basis and not a penny of taxpayers money involved either.
Nor does the NextGenUs approach make any requirement for folks to buy shares, simply commitment to pay for service once successfully installed.
This is results-based delivery driven by community demand that does not require public subsidy to achieve and which can be usefully stimulated through SBV (Superfast Broadband Vouchers) as proven in Lincolnshire, Wales and France already, by helping cut the cost of Fi:Wi installation for each customer.
SBV reward results instead of promises.
NextGenUs is committed to FTTH4ALL in due course as the natural Fi:Wi objective, resulting in a durable 4th Utility offering future-proof and fit for purpose ubiquitous fixed and mobile access to Digital Services.
This is true NGA delivery, both technical and affordable, of access to everything digital everywhere we choose, fixed and mobile, permanent and nomadic.
If your community has not registered interest and you would like to become a local NextGenUs Broadband Pioneer then please register at the website here http://www.nextgenus.co.uk/register
NextGenUs Cumbria is not alone amongst innovative companies offering service and creating jobs in Cumbria right now;
Special mention for both Solway Communications in the Carlisle and Northern Fells areas and KryptonTV in Patterdale and county-wide in fact, locally-based companies (and there are others) getting on with the task of providing communities with broadband without holding out the begging bowl for taxpayer handouts as BT has the bare-faced cheek to be doing.
There is no market failure in Cumbria rather there are suppliers ready to deliver service in response to community demand now, very much including BT
The hindrance holding back Cumbria is inept and inappropriate intervention by Big Government in a market where it has no business meddling….
BDUK’s performance has been an absolute disgrace, having delivered better broadband to precisely ZERO homes or businesses in approaching 18 months of existence at a cost to the taxpayer running into many £Millions (and growing daily).
Together We Are The Network encapsulates the NextGenUs Community Interest ethos and in the words of David Isenberg “Now let’s build it.”
re: The Dark Fibre path through Lancashire and Cumbria is complete and ready to light up at Gigabit speeds
Can this be used by B4RN?
Certainly Peter, on normal commercial terms with personal guarantees as appropriate.